the nascent appeal of managerial competency

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=301288.0

first line is pretty special

“I am a manager, a doctor, a nuclear physicist, a theoretical philosopher, but above all, I am a man. Just like you."

i am none of those things fwiw

tried to watch some of being liverpool tonight and couldn't make it past a line about 'liverpool will need to perform strongly if james carragher's father is to ever win a league medal' or soemthing. rodgers seemed alright- not v comfortable with cameras about, none of them were rly

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2307095/Paolo-Di-Canio-Sunderland-training-scenes.html

Interesting article on pdc's training style. Hands on showing players exactly what he wants is I suppose no less valid than the more old man impart wisdom from mountain top default setting.

everyone should re-read this thread every couple months imo

this probably a better place to extend my comparison of moyes and martinez and why the latter while more flawed has greater upside. it isn't just about the notional aesthetic comparison between maloney vs anichebe. rather it's because what martinez doing is really rather unusual, today he played a formation that confounded manchester city. the use of wingbacks, even converting a dmid to the position because all of his other options are injured, and two forwards attacking from the flanks caused regular overmatching. zabaleta is the best rb in the league but he couldn't contain it and got booked twice, leading to the late surge that brought the corner and the goal.

sacchi described the multiplier effect as the aim of all tactics, getting players to play beyond their skillset via formation/coaching etc. moyes' success depended to a greater extent on physicality and aggression, midtable sort of strategies which top teams seldom rely on as an end in themselves. they depend on the particularities of the players, like having a £15m 6'4 nuisance capable of outmatching an adjunct centreback (how everton won 1-0 at goodison last year). and as such they are more predictable and more easily neutralized, like by putting phil jones on fellaini in the next game. martinez isn't dependent on his players to the same degree, most of his squad are interchangeable journeymen who he has to deploy in innovative ways vs more talented teams.

it's like how 'natural goalscorers' in the afonso alves vein fail to transfer to higher leagues because their 'instinct' reflected the naivete of the opposition, whereas a player like thierry henry with an unremarkable scoring record can become great because his exceptional physical and technical skills were not contingent in the same way. martinez succeeds via tactical determinism in the manner of the greatest coaches, rather than the dogs of war spirit of most lower table success stories.

i still rate moyes pretty highly but i think his best achievement is buying midpriced defenders -- jagielka, distin, baines, coleman, lescott have all easily outperformed the for money spent on them. he is certainly better at it than martinez but the differences would probably be less apparent if they both had £60m to spend and finding undervalued prospects was less important. other than that i rate the way he plays 4-2-3-1 so well (if crudely) and the solidity of his attacking midfield, players like arteta osman pienaar are much better drilled defensively than a lot of amids. chelsea could learn from him.

Good posts.

Martinez's control of that game today was embarrassing.

didn't see the QF where wigan won 3-0 at goodison - apparently that was a total outplaying too

with all that said it is fairly amazing how wigan constantly seem to outplay a side (like swansea last week) and still lose

http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2013/oct/08/english-coach-anthony-hudson-bahrain

I'm a bit pissed bit for some reason I found that quite moving. think it was the bit about watching the Chilean games. intense dedication to skill + professionalism rather than bogus notions of "heart".

yeah, almost to the extent that i bought this bit of diplomatic evasion

More troubling for family and friends back home was the wave of violence that erupted during pro-democracy protests in the wake of the Arab Spring two years ago, an issue highlighted in the sporting world by the controversy over the staging of Formula One Grand Prix on the island kingdom.

Yet the national coach feels cut off from the disquiet. "It'll be hard for people to believe this, but since I've been here I've not seen any problems. Where I live is very peaceful. But I'll freely admit my life is immersed in football, a very one-track existence. I'm in a bubble which means I don't see much outside of football."

a real football man

yeah, the "sport is separate from politics" stance is never not bullshit.

The nascent appeal of snake oil marketing.

FOUND OUT

If you are a young turk technocrat genius wunderkind manager that cant change formation then impale u imo and onwards to the next victim

but he's so dreamy

he isn't a genius and only half a dozen in the history of management could qualify for that (not mourinho either) but he is 2 or 3 points behind where tottenham ought to be right now, and that is optimistic given the player turnaround

Strikethru needs to sort this, chelsea fans otm about this inflexible fraud

― 30 ch'lopping days left to umas (darraghmac), Sunday, 24 November 2013 14:38 (1 hour ago)

EMPRERS NEW CLOTHES M8

E's all too aware of wot e's fackin doin guv

problem is the overprioritisation of that aspect vs player form and what's happening in front of his eyes. He tweaks when slashes are called for. And he looks like howard moon.

http://i.imgur.com/HUgwt.jpg?1

that's beautiful

"Inflexibilty" isn't the problem, a sudden shift to 4-4-2 or use of an attacking central midfielder isn't going to solve the problem, it's an issue of squad balance and personnel. Priority #1 in January should be more physical threat in attack.

The criticism from the dressing room is that his highly scientific approach overlooks the human dimension, which is ironic, given that is one of his buzz phrases. The players, technically, ought to have been ashamed after City but, on a human level, would that soundbite not have been better kept behind closed doors? Other managers might have accepted the blame in public, albeit as a diversionary tactic.

Villas-Boas has struggled to manage the transition since the sale of Gareth Bale and the influx, for a second successive summer, of a host of new faces. Some of the existing players have been bumped down the pecking order, which has led to gripes.

tell you what nakh, sandro is a big strong boyy but he's absolutely griking there

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2013/nov/29/andre-villas-boas-tromso-fan-sacked-chant-ejected

occurring to me more and more that Roberto Martinez would be a perfect England manager. discuss

With the current squad? In the context of the World Cup at least (maybe up to Euro 2016) I think we're gonna be limited by the ability of the players more than their deployment. Obviously an attacking free-flowing England side would be lovely to see, but who mans the right flank in Martinez's system? Walker? urggh

oh, Milner I suppose, maybe.

Mcmanaman obv

it'll sort itself out. genuinely can't think of a more appropriate candidate to succeed Hodgson, but would he leave Everton?

Would have Lambert as England manager actually, the man's ability to craft hit-and-run victories against superior teams armed only with 20% possession and hard-running is admirable.

isn't English but has spent most of his adult life here; plays smart football with limited resources & can demonstrably beat any other Premiership team; much-loved personality; absolutely no risk of controversial media embarrassment; a foreign manager we can call one of our own with some justifiability

hahaha never a Scot, never

not because I h8 scots (they're usually gr8) but because...it'd just be wrong, it'd throw everyone for a...

actually I like the sound of it more, on consideration

No patience with under-performing big names, willing to give promising youngsters a chance. Who am I kidding, he's not that good and it really won't make much difference who manages England for the next few years at least. Reactionary Roy probably going to get us as far as anyone else could manage next year

just watching moyes' interview, and every other interview, he doesn't seem to be very intelligent

not that the best manager is the cleverest but all of the better ones at the moment just seem to be quicker than him, even rodgers when he talks sententious nonsense you can tell there is a certain craftiness, moyes has no guile or subterfuge at all, i don't think there is a current epl top half manager who /less/ resembles ferguson in this respect

David "wilf Guinness" moyes.

Mc

notice EMPRERS NEW CLOTHES has three wins and a draw since he was forcibly disrobed after city fucked over spurs like they do ever other team that isn't bayern munich at home this season

The draw was a good performance the wins all smelt of fortune, with only bare bone hints of quality showing late today. Opposition dross and still threatened throughout.

deems you will have noticed i am not especially enthusiastic about villas boas any more than i am of the other portuguese manager cited in the first post, but he certainly isn't a charlatan and he was right to disparage the shitty hack who pretended he had achieved nothing

Agreed, but not so politely

I'm intrigued by the current problems that spurs are facing and avb's approach to dealing with them tbh. Maybe best xharacterised as a confusion over whether the issue lies with the personnel or their instructions (both seem to be coming in for a bit of a shellacking recently).

For instance width - is the problem that eg Townsend has fuck all tactical discipline and therefore continues to cut inside every time even when he's been told to stay wide to open up the middle a bit, or that avb is actively encouraging the cutting in as the most effective role for Townsend as an individual?

I think what I'm trying to work round to is that I'm not convinced that a manager like avb, who made his reputation on compiling incredibly detailed analyses of the opposition, had just failed to consider that certain combinations of players fail to provide the requisite width in attack or w/e.

Answers on a postcard, would basically like youse lot to explain how a guy who clearly knows so much about football remains stubborn in the face of evidence that most armchair analysts can agree on . Apologies if this is all nonsense, zinging from the puv

I think that the level of detail and proximity to the pressures and problems considerd by any coach (allied to interpersonal politics and mid to long term agendas) allied further with a mishmash of ego/belief in their own tactical genius and the necessity of bringing same to the game every time to necessarily justify position can lead to some very strange decisions, oftentimes decisions that fly in the face of armchair expertise, not always ignorant or unaffected by the knowledge of this, oftentimes to the detriment of team/individual performance.

That said trying to coordinate eleven or twenty five similar egos in concert in what must needs be often counterproductive methods to the personal talents, traits and instincts that have brought a twenty year old to the top of their profession has to be acknowledged as a smoky mirror through which to direct affairs.

Back from pub, will attempt to condense whatever it was I was drivelling on about upthread into a semi-coherent post.

AVB is a man who has previously earned his corn (and apparently forged quite a reputation) off the back of composing detailed and thoughtful reports on future opposition, taking into account everything from all-round playing style to the specific heights and jumping capacity of their target men at set pieces.

Questions:

- on his undoubtedly numerous re-viewings of Spurs' matches from this season, has he really failed to spot all the issues that the armchair pundits complain about on a weekly basis? Is this guy who is apparently a savant of technical football analysis incapable of spotting that e.g Townsend could do with working on his final ball in the last third rather than tonking it at every given opportunity? Will AVB not have mentioned this?

- do ppl think that he is actually content with the resources that he has at e.g. full-back in his current squad?

This is of genuine interest to me. This is no mere ex-pro with 15 England caps and a semi-decent track-record as a player with 3 or 4 Premier League sides; here we have a man who has been employed from the get-go on the basis that he understands football on a more sophisticated level than yr average punter (and has provided some, if not ample, evidence that this is the case). Is he really such a flawed, insecure personality that he will stubbornly stick to his guns re: team selection and tactics at the expence of team performance, if he feels that he's getting unnecessary shit from press / fans? Are we expected to believe that the various ideas that occur to Johnny Spurs Fan have never occurred to one of the most celebrated young managers in Europe? Is all of this all relevant to any underperforming manager operating a high level of the modern game? Idk, I'm just particularly in AVB bcuz he's meant to be this young Turk genius who has devoted his life since adolesence to understanding this sport, as opposed to say, Steve Bruce, who remains a good centre back that took up management once his body gave out

xpost- sorry Darragh, just typed all that out before I knew you'd posted, and I'm bloody well going to post it now it's finished. May be that you address all my points in yr post, we shall see

Fair points and a boot to this thread at an interesting time imo

Possibilities worth considering imo

Players dont believe in tactics

Players dont believe in manager

Manager goes through huge tactical analysis of oppositioneach time, decides indepently on every occasion that the perfect formation is 451 with dawson in a high line and withno focus on end product
Tactical genius was overstated and lack in other areas (flexibility, confidence, relationship management, w/e) is reverting to a natural performance level for this coach

Tactical brilliance in general is overrated and the lacks above are showing in the longer term with same result

more im sure

Discuss: the reason we have a vested interest in AVB (or Rodgers, Mourinho, whoever) sorting all this shit out is that we like the idea of a guy who thinks of football in the same way we do schooling all these ex-pros and demonstrating that you don't need to have been a great player to get this shit. When in actual fact it could v. possibly be very useful to have direct experience of what it is like to be on the pitch in these high-pressure scenarios, to have a decade + of dressing room experience where you learn how to approach these fcking entitled cunts and how to tell 'em to do their job properly, etc., as per Steve Bruce who I so disparagingly referenced a few mins ago. That the reason I want the likes of AVB to succeed so badly is that I'm fucking good at Football Manager but fucking shite at football.

NB. aware that all of these issues have probably been addressed in this thread, also that the last few lines may explain my own devotion to the likes of AVB Rodgers Mourinho but don't necessarily count for anyone else, but fuckit and fuckyall, firmly believe that the Inverting the Pyramid approach to football dialogue definitely overlooks the element that it would fucking help to have someone that has actually been through all of this before in charge and giving you your instructions, if only that person wasn't a total fucking moron

Players don't believe in tactics - think this is entirely possible and mebbe not entirely wrong-headed provided it's not taken too far. What really is the difference between a 4-4-2 and a 4-2-3-1 where the manager yells at his wide men to drop deeper? Difference between "tactics" as a manager's responsibility (i.e. instructions for each individual player and the team as a whole) vs a player's own perception of "I am a winger, the manager tells me to try to cut in and shoot, close down opposition full-back when he's on the ball", not really taking much responsibility for wider team ethic but forming part of a larger whole that the manager is solely responsible for.