The Great ILX Gun Control Debate

wait, did he have an assault rifle? I thought it was just a "normal" rifle with military styling?

lotta ppl proudly ignorant of the difference imo

But my understanding is that the AR-15 wasn't used in the school anyway.

In the former U.S. law, the legal term assault weapon included certain specific semi-automatic firearm models by name (e.g., Colt AR-15, TEC-9, non-select-fire AK-47s produced by three manufacturers, and Uzis) and other semi-automatic firearms because they possess a minimum set of cosmetic features from the following list of features:

Semi-automatic rifles able to accept detachable magazines and two or more of the following:

Folding or telescoping stock
Pistol grip
Bayonet mount
Flash suppressor, or threaded barrel designed to accommodate one
Grenade launcher (more precisely, a muzzle device that enables launching or firing rifle grenades, though this applies only to muzzle mounted grenade launchers and not those mounted externally).

Semi-automatic pistols with detachable magazines and two or more of the following:

Magazine that attaches outside the pistol grip
Threaded barrel to attach barrel extender, flash suppressor, handgrip, or suppressor
Barrel shroud that can be used as a hand-hold
Unloaded weight of 50 oz (1.4 kg) or more
A semi-automatic version of a fully automatic firearm.

Semi-automatic shotguns with two or more of the following:

Folding or telescoping stock
Pistol grip
Fixed capacity of more than 5 rounds
Detachable magazine.

I don't get up in arms about "assault rifle" and "assault weapon" - I think it's pretty clear that people mean military-styled semi-autos. The point they need to understand is that styling is pretty irrelevant.

Anyway an assault rifle, by definition, is capable of automatic fire. These have been highly restricted since 1934 and civilian production stopped completely in 1986. They're also pretty much never used in crimes.

Is there an I Love Paramilitary Operations thread

Anyway an assault rifle, by definition, is capable of automatic fire.

well not by the definition of the old law....

Assault weapon is defined by the various AWBs, as CAD quoted.

re: grenade launcher, grenades are destructive devices subject to the same 1934-era restrictions as machine guns, etc..

Assault rifle and assault weapon are two different things. Assault weapon bans dealt with pistols, shotguns and other things as well.

ok yes i see yr distinction

was it the assault weapons ban that everyone agreed was a total failure? i feel like the political capital needed to persistently improve gun control laws to the point where they need to be would be better spent on health care.

the whole BAN ALL GUNS stance, aside from being practically impossible, might only serve to alienate liberal gun owners who would otherwise endorse very strict gun control measures.

thank you gbx... I mean, I'm all for taking the Bakunin "I will continue to be impossible as long as all others are possible" stance, but it is alienating to a degree when it's served up w/condescension (which is not what anybody is doing on this thread this time around afaict).

gbx, the 'banning and confiscating' left needs to exist to serve the purpose that the wacko bloc does to the right-wing. 'we need to be reasonable' ignores the fact that the left has been entirely too reasonable on this particular issue.

― iatee, Saturday, December 15, 2012 4:18 PM (2 hours ago)

don't know if anyone else has pointed this out but i just want to put this in my favorites tab or something to use the next time i or alfred or aero gets into it with iatee on the regular politics thread!

I think the existence of the far left on an issue strengthens the dems bargaining power it's just the far left simply doesnt exist w/ real voting power on many issues

and 'being really angry' doesn't make more people like you exist

unless you have angry sex

i'll post here what i posted in the Newtown thread:

Shouldn't this debate be a national referendum?

Today in Guthrie, OK a 3 year old got a hold of a gun and shot himself in the head. So after all the media bombardment regarding guns, someone didn't think to put their gun where a toddler couldn't get it.

Shouldn't this debate be a national referendum?

You want to make guns harder to get, work on it at the state level and in the courts.

state and local laws are kinda worthless when you can buy guns in a different state/district and bring them in

but Texas is so big

state and local laws are kinda worthless when you can buy guns in a different state/district and bring them in

I had to do a Ctrl-F to check to see if I still agree with what I've said in the past. Yup. I do.

me either

this is as good a time as any for people to read stevens' dissent in heller:

http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/07-290.ZD.html

so so so so so so so many people, including liberals, just credulously absorb as fact the conventional wisdom that the second amendment gives people the absolute right to privately own guns and that the history of jurisprudence on the issue supports that. it's a much bigger problem than people being mean to 'liberal gun owners' (lol)

I'm not talking about being "mean" to liberal gun owners, I'm talking about basic coalition building

http://s3.amazonaws.com/dk-production/images/12613/large/TMW2012-12-19colorKOS.png?1355584910

more gun shops than grocery stores, McDonald's

http://www.businessinsider.com/more-gun-stores-in-america-than-grocery-stores-2012-12

it's not actually true, only more than supermarkets ie grocery stores w/ 2m+ in sales

assuming the figure includes big box chains that sell guns as well

If a big box sells guns, it is a gun store. (shrugs)

yeah i don't really disagree

bump

you needn't

you shan't

Out of curiosity I looked at the Walmart site. Found this nifty gun:

http://i.walmartimages.com/i/p/00/79/86/81/44/0079868144115_180X180.jpg

Which it outright delineates as" for use in law enforcement, military operations, the sporting field and competitive shooting."

Notice the order there.

should have added "and shoplifters"

New York State Common Retirement Fund reconsidering how much of its http://news.yahoo.com/newtown-backlash-prompts-gun-investment-overhaul-032547862--sector.html50 billion it invests in gun manufacturers, Smith & Wesson stocks drop 10%

I'm not entirely clear as to the causality of those two sentences, but a 10% drop may well explain any new eagerness to find solutions by its spokesmen ie the NRA.

Haha thanks there auto-convert - the figure is $150 billion.

Already interesting feature on "Fresh Air" focusing on the proliferation of assault weapons in American society. I guess guns like the AR-15 were designed c. Vietnam, following studies that revealed most soliders were not using their guns for accuracy but to simply spray bullets randomly in burst all over the place at short to medium range. Now moving on to the flaws of the '94 semi-auto assault weapon ban, and how/why Bushmaster flourished post ban...

Interesting, Hunting has apparently been on the decline, which has emphasized the marketing of so-called "tactical" rifles that mimic military design.

"Tactical" is just a marketing term in macho-world, correct? Otherwise, meaningless.

"tactless" doesn't have the same ring to it

meaningless, for sure. it's mil-speak, so it has that battlefiled aura, but there isn't a firearm in the world that couldn't be called "tactical".

New York State Common Retirement Fund reconsidering how much of its http://news.yahoo.com/newtown-backlash-prompts-gun-investment-overhaul-032547862--sector.html50 billion it invests in gun manufacturers, Smith & Wesson stocks drop 10%
I'm not entirely clear as to the causality of those two sentences, but a 10% drop may well explain any new eagerness to find solutions by its spokesmen ie the NRA.

― Andrew Farrell, Wednesday, December 19, 2012 10:41 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Institutional investors probably make up a large percentage of the holders of gun stocks. If they're increasingly going to be considering dumping their holdings, that's going to drive down the stock a lot. Selloffs cause price drops, and, somewhat circularly, rumors of big selloffs cause big selloffs.

Yeah, "tactical" is just a word to sub for "assault."

I'm more bothered by the implications of "tactical" as a marketing term than I am by the specs of the weapons actually.

Tactical marketing.

I mean I'm more bothered that there's an significant-sized demographic who sees "tactical" use as an important feature.

I mean I'm more bothered that there's an significant-sized demographic who sees "tactical" use as an important feature.

― drunk 'n' white's elements of style (Hurting 2), Thursday, December 20, 2012 12:11 PM (5 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

otm