Where is the infamous Rolling Stones sample in "Bittersweet Symphony" ?

wire>elastica (this one makes me very very mad), gilbert o'sullivan>biz markee, queen/bowie>vanilla ice, roy orbison>2 live crew, 'stones'>verve, willie dixon>led zeppelin even.

happy to see the site's still up and running.

All hail fucking Ashcroft.

"We sampled four bars. That was on one track. Then we did 47 tracks of music beyond that little piece. We've got our own string players, our own percussion on it. Guitars. We're talking about a four-bar sample turning into 'Bitter Sweet Symphony' and they're still claiming it's the same song."

Adding tracks and instruments does not change the fact that the whole song, start to finish, is written very tightly around those four bars. The keys and changes are all in that sample. No sample, no song. He deserved to be sued.

But it should be known that "Bittersweet Symphony" is not driven by some kinda brilliant pop songwriting, but rather by a simple sample. Too many people still give Ashcroft wayyyy too much credit for it.

I don't care how much is Verve and how much is the Stones, "Bittersweet Symphony" remains one of the best singles of all time.

F
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C
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you are an idiot.

The RS riff goes:
Da-da-da, da-da, daah-da, da-da

Nothing alike! Bogus litigation, clearly.

But there's really not, that's my point. If you listen to the whole Andrew Loog Oldham Orchestra (great name by the way) track, it becomes obvious around the minute-thirty-five mark. The leap from what's going on there to the main melody in "Bittersweet Symphony" is very small.

Ashcroft's collegiate romanticism (I can't make much sense from the philosophising and don't care to try too hard) just adds vocal texture. But the fact that a sample from an orchestral interpretation is turned into a rhythmic device means that the Verve did some serious creative work and means they deserve considerable credit for turning it into a hit - unless you want to argue that the Loog track was seriously likely to move any units at all without Ashcroft's intervention.

rather, it means that the verve made the simple mistake of not asking for permission for beforehand and thus forfeited their rights to have any say in the negotiation.

I believe Richard Ashcroft was allowed a £1000 'writer's fee' for his new words...

Whatever! I don't see any of you hating on Puff Daddy for what he did to Sting, oh hang on...

What's bad about these Ashcroft lyrics? Ususally he's a dick, but not so much here. I think it rocks and I did when I was 16.

HAHAHA Enrique I salute you.

"We sampled four bars. That was on one track. Then we did 47 tracks of music beyond that little piece. We've got our own string players, our own percussion on it. Guitars. We're talking about a four-bar sample turning into 'Bitter Sweet Symphony' and they're still claiming it's the same song."

Oh come the fuck on , man.

LOL

http://marlinco.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/vanilla20ice-4.jpg

:) i never heard that original sample. cool.

Embeddable version:

I like the orchestral version of that song better than the real one

I heard the original some years back and it made me scoff. I never thought of Bittersweet Symphony the same way again (not that I was that big of a fan in the first place). The Verve struck me as a bunch of mediocre poseurs from the get-go and why some people make such a big fuss over them, I can't imagine.

such a rad song + perfect at the end of 'cruel intentions'

^^^^^

i felt like that when i heard 'superfreak' for the first time.

xpost

max otm loool was gonna doa 'cruel intentions' thread today but forgot. so dope.

David Whitaker really deserves some credit in that story, at least as much as Oldham (and certainly a bit more).

I've always felt that the Verve get kinda hosed here. Yes, the chords and supporting bgd is the Loog Oldham orchestra. But the hooks are all theirs: the string melody, the vocal melody.

However much a douche Ashcroft is is beside the point. The orchestral tune is nice -- over the top of it the Verve made a big, catchy pop tune that's some kind of classic.

uh if you take a big obvious uncleared sample like this you're pretty much begging to be sued, no matter how much stuff you add over it

Pretty sure they did clear the sample and that there was an agreed to 50/50 royalty split.

That said the best argument that this is more Stones than the Verve is the fact that neither the Verve nor Ashcroft wrote anything half as successful.

I *can* hear the main orchestral hook, even though I know it's not there

That said the best argument that this is more Stones than the Verve is the fact that neither the Verve nor Ashcroft wrote anything half as successful.

Yeah but how many people HAVE?

(I mean it was one of the biggest hits of the entire decade)

Okay maybe a 1/10th as successful? Successful at all? A top 5 hit?

the whole thing's such a joke because Jagger/Richards ripped off/stole from so many people - the idea that their manager took advantage of the Verve to reap a ridiculous legal settlement from a sample is very uhhhh waht.

but its always funny to hear people actually complain (still! after all these years!) about how sampling is stealing, not original, etc.

for one thing the Stones' version of "The Last Time" is itself ripped (completely uncredited) from the Staple Singers

Actually I guess they had a couple of other UK top 5 hits, but whatever.

lolz as I already pointed out way upthread hah

x-post

this is a good song and i don't like the rolling stones very much

Yeah I'm not arguing that the Verve didn't get fleeced.

do people who complain about this sample complain about Eric B and Rakim looping James Brown or Dr. Dre looping P-Funk or Puffy looping the Police or or or

The AOO version is leagues better than the Stones's or the Verve's.

idk, i think bittersweet symphony is a great single

But what of that "Treat Infamy" song?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBQ0qNtLq8E

It would be like if Dylan demanded royalties for Beck’s “Jackass”, no?

Ha ha, Spotify still has this as “Written By: Keith Richards Mick Jagger.”

Never change, Spotify.

David Whitaker really should have been compensated for the sample

Ha ha, Spotify still has this as “Written By: Keith Richards Mick Jagger.”

Never change, Spotify.

why would this change? (does it not say lyrics by Ashcroft, as per the album?)

It does not.

I assume Spotify gets those credits directly from the licensor (would have to light the Glenn-signal to confirm).

yeah, if the official credit does now go to the band or to Ashcroft, one wouldn't expect that to change in sleevenotes unless there was a new "release" with new metadata - an anniversary remaster, an appearance on Best Britpop Anthems Of All Time... Ever!! etc.

Even then, if the track is there already, it won't erase or update the previous