R. Kelly: Ongoing Legal Process

Josh -- aaliyah said it best. age ain't... i.e. maturity doesn't come at the stroke of midnight but differently for different people. besides, two teen can consentually screw but not an adult and a teen, which makes no sense.

I'll buy your persecution complex when your mother sues you.

For 'adult' read 'person competent to consent'. I don't mean to imply a hard and fast cutoff is best. (Though there may be good reasons for setting such an age in the law.)

josh: the problem here is there's no way to determine what the sitch was since the gal who they claim it is sez it isn't her. Was she competent to consent? Talking to family and friends if not her might help, but they deny it too. & anyway that'll never happen coz the law only treats age.

ethan: sometimes i think you don't wanna grow up at all.

So I want to argue here that my position on this has little to do with what I like in art & elsewhere & much to do with other concerns -- like why should the govt. decide what is and isn't healthy and does it EVER help with they do try to?

I don't want to idealize this stuff (golden showers = ew) but I mean you can regulate consent, but who the fuck can regulate the messy ugly world of emotions & expectations.

Also, why R. Kelley and not like every rock band that's had teenage girl groupies like ever? I mean I don't remember a scandal like this since Jerry Lewis & that was only because they got married and thus threw it in everyone's face and ALSO were cousins.

The U.K. was wrong to fuck with him, but read Tosches' book and you'll see that he wasn't a nice guy to Mrs. Myra Lee neither.

Now then, Sterling, where do you stand on Michael Jackson?

ie. I had sex while underage (three years underage --> I was fifteen) with a guy maybe ten years older. I don't think the guy was behaving badly towards me, I don't regret it, it was fun etc. BUT that doesn't mean that I don't think the law saying it's technically "non-consensual" shouldn't be there (though age of consent should def. be lowered to 16 for homosexuals, obv.). I know too many people who were in similar situations and who were fucked up by the experience. In that sense maybe the guy I had sex with and R Kelly are both stupid and not evil, but robbing a bank can be stupid and not evil too.

(also do not underestimate Ramosi's powers of classification. I should know!)

Ramosi -- does the govt. go after the prostitutes or the pimps? I've mainly seen these laws used in rotten ways and selectively. People are either mature enough to fuck up their own lives or they aren't, and the line is different for each person and each situation. I'm not saying that there is no line, but that you can't draw it always and forever without mainly doing bad stuff. Especially in the hands of the foax who now implement it. I don't trust the govt. with the world, why the hell should I trust it with people's bedrooms?

I say, check his pockets for lollipops.

Tracer, check your email, I can't say this comment on the board else I'll get in trubble again :)

if r kelly is not imprisoned then there will be no laws and everybody will be in ANARCHY!

So that said, two points: saying that cases are different doesn't mean that they should be given up on, just that there should be something better as a guideline than a birthday.

Second: in the r kelly case it is outrageous because they can't prove anything. They have apparently been "tracking" the case for years (who else EVER is "tracked" for years over this stuff besides certain celebs? Christ they probably tracked him closer than than some of the alleged terrorists [tho he did keep a higher profile]) and NOBODY HAS EVER SAID ANYTHING ABOUT CONSENT. The settlements were simple on statutory charges. In other words, nobody ever said they were coerced into anything.

At very worst, he lied to 14-16 year old girls to get them in the sack. Which makes him different from most 14-16 year old boys how?

People are bad and lie to other people all the time. Is that what the govt. is there for? To make everyone always tell the truth? Gimme a break.

Well, he's 33, for one.... </cheapshot>

This is a purely statutory case & statutory laws are most often used when there is consent on all sides and therefore they are the ONLY laws which can be used. & further as it is straight age-based and no issues of consent are allowed or permissible, any arguments at all beyond "did they?" and "how old?" rilly matter in court.

No, I think he's talking about stuatory rape charges where (in the absence of parents introducing protective moral opprobrium into the situation) someone attempts to demonstrate that "it wasn't so bad" because the victim was "just that sort of girl" -- i.e., "of course it would be terrible if someone laid his hands on a pristine middle- class blonde girl, but this was just some ghetto skank who does this all the time anyway." Given your arguments above, Sterling, I can't tell whether you'd suggest that that argument should be "taken out and shot" or rather celebrated for acknowledging "the messy ugly world of emotions & expectations."

Also your contention that this is "a purely statuatory case" is a little odd insofar as everything I've read about it indicates that there's no statuatory rape charge and only a production-and- dissemination of child porn charge: in the legal sense what you (and R. Kelly) need to be arguing is not that it's okay to have sex with teenagers but that it's okay to document it as entertainment. I.e., not "are teenagers competent to consent to sex" but "are teenagers competent to consent to appearing in pornography," which I think is a slightly harder argument to make.

I mean, for the girl, I maintain that the worst thing to come out of it is that there are videotapes of her having sex floating all over chicago. A bad sexual experience doesn't necessarily ruin somebody's life, but fifteen minutes of shame damn well can.

lol Lifetime, so brave, surely they are doing this in order to damage his career rather than profit off of it

Embattled R&B star R Kelly has been filmed telling a room full of people it is "too late" for his musical influence to be curtailed.

The video was originally uploaded to Facebook on 17 May, as the singer faced fresh allegations of sexual misconduct.

"I'm handcuffed by my destiny," he says, clutching a cigar. "They should've did this [expletive] 30 years ago.

"It's too late. The music has been injected into the world."

well he's right about that

otoh, legacies can be erased

i don't think R Kelly is going to get many new fans down the road, that's one way to do it.

on the other hand, it's crazy what fans will say to defend him, how they'll still believe he's being railroaded or even did nothing wrong.

BREAKING: Embattled R&B superstar R. Kelly was charged with 10 counts of aggravated criminal sexual abuse in Cook County Friday morning, records show. https://t.co/H7k2Ind5F7

— Chicago Sun-Times (@Suntimes) February 22, 2019

That only took ... years and years of inaction and unrepentant repugnant behavior.

don't forget the michael jackson-style messianic self-aggrandizing songs!

What in the everloving fuck @ this thread.

lol Lifetime, so brave, surely they are doing this in order to damage his career rather than profit off of it

― Οὖτις, Tuesday, May 8, 2018 11:11 AM (nine months ago)

Damn, Shakey, this was cynical!

that's a weird comment

why not both?

Beyond why not both, they also undoubtedly had to factor in the risk of a defamation claim

HBO actually is being sued by the Jackson Estate for airing the "Leaving Neverland" doc (though that's a wild-seeming contractual claim based on a 1992 agreement for airing a concert, in which HBO apparently agreed "not make any disparaging remarks" about Jackson)

this thread title is very internet-2002 in a bad way

Now I want to know what Marcello could have said that was serious enough to get deleted in 2008

don’t try it.

sounds like he is in custody

which record is that on?

Step in the Name of the Law

wau at s clover

cant believe the time before now wasnt now

being loud and mad and red online about how 27-year-olds should be allowed to fuck 14-year-olds without censure probably has as many adherents now as it did then

aaliyah said it best. age ain't... i.e. maturity doesn't come at the stroke of midnight but differently for different people. besides, two teen can consentually screw but not an adult and a teen, which makes no sense.

― Sterling Clover, Wednesday, June 5, 2002 5:00 PM (sixteen years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

And feminists with their boneheaded equation of emotional and physical harm have done a great disservice in this regard. Yesyes I know I am making enemies of everyone in ILX. Fuckit.

― Sterling Clover, Wednesday, June 5, 2002 5:00 PM (sixteen years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

but we have to remember that things were a lot different in the 2000s

This thread isn’t regular old-ilx bad, it’s some of these people must be on a register by now bad

More props for the Lifetime doc:

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/r-kelly-survivor-lisa-vanallen-writes-ny-times-op-ed-1190441

https://variety.com/2019/music/news/john-legend-r-kelly-long-time-coming-1203150150/

(Someone should maybe change this thread title, btw?)

(...thanks, mod!)

_
but we have to remember that things were a lot different in the 2000s

i believe omar little was being facetious

i remember in 2002 thinking that a 24 year post-grad student going out with a 17 year school girl was weird lol

If I were actually to consider accusing a network of looking to “profit” from these developments, it would be CBS for airing this week’s big two-part interview with R. Kelly. I guess he certainly has the right to defend himself on TV if he wants. But it feels like the exclusive, heavily promoted interview may serve to legitimize his position in some way? Idk

dude took all the wrong lessons from the Kavanaugh hearing

But it feels like the exclusive, heavily promoted interview may serve to legitimize his position in some way?

Have you seen it? He pretty much set himself on fire.

I’ve read excerpts.

Back in jail for unpaid child support.

"also i said the same sorta stuff about king and boys, so yes it was to be expected."

who is King? wait was this S clover actually advocating for pederasty?

man the 2000's were crazy weird times.

i kind of get the rhetorical move he's trying to make t/o this thread... but suggesting that a 12(!!!!!!!!) yr old girl can grant "consent" to have intercourse with an adult male--as he indeed does above-- is an incredible thing to write.

i believe he's gone from ILX so we can rake him over the coals safely I suppose.

he posted on here a bit kinda recently.

it's more difficult to post with one hand holding an "R KELLY DID NOTHING WRONG" protest sign while standing outside a courthouse but he managed

i'm not sure he was trying to apologize for r. kelly much as he was trying to introduce some nuance (usually a good gesture) into a situation that doesn't really call for nuance.

i mean i can imagine a reasonable person writing something like "well, that 17 y.o. was very emotionally mature for her age" but trying to make that move w/ a 12 y.o.? holy shit.

DeRo totally righteous on NPR's 1A right now.

R. Kelly's lawyer from his 2008 trial is dying of cancer and wants everyone to know Kelly was 'guilty as hell' https://t.co/DKYioShMbx

— INSIDER (@thisisinsider) March 8, 2019

ok, but wtf? -- Genson also told the paper he doesn't think Kelly is guilty of the current charges against him: "I don't think he's done anything inappropriate for years."

wow a lot to unpack in that article

One of the men in the jury pool...who said he liked to crochet and had planned a trip to Germany to visit his boyfriend, said he wasn't too familiar with R. Kelly and thought the trial was about Robert Crumb, the 77-year-old cartoonist who signs his work as "R. Crumb."

https://www.insider.com/r-kelly-trial-lawyers-want-charges-dropped-jury-selection-begins-2021-8

they both like feelin’ on your booty