Defend the indefensible - Bob Dylan.

Because if it's not I may cry.

so apologies.

(x-post)

shakey that's not true.

Chuck Berry is a nut, true, but you can boil all of his songs down to really generic topics tailor made for youthful infatuations of the day(sex, "rocking", cars, etc.)

Prove me wrong, kids.

And I don't care if Dylan would agree with me or not, what does that have to do with anything?

i think dylan took allusiveness and obliqueness to new levels in rock lyrics, but the problem fritz is with your assertion that such attributes were entirely new. you're guilty of hyberbole, that's all.

(x-post)

fritz: huh?

1,000 apologies.

Amateurist: hyperbolic, eh maybe. But really, I can't think of a single performer who placed such a heavy premium on rock n roll as a vehicle for personal expression (or the illusion thereof) prior to Dylan. Elvis was a personality, but it was obvious right from the beginning he was singing other people's songs, directed by others, singing in an established idiom (blues lyrics), etc. With Dylan, you had someone forcing you to listen to a language and delivery that was highly individualized, way more so than anyone before him. I'm not knocking his many predecessors or the styles they worked in, I just think Dylan was at the crux of a massive shift in the language of rock, and that makes him pretty, er, "defensible".

I understand what you're trying to say, Shakey, but this is fallacious. number one, Elvis directed his own sessions most of the time--something his nominal producers (Sam Phillips, Felton Jarvis) have said on the record numerous times. two, casting Elvis as merely a "blues singer" ignores not only the dozens of other things going on in his music at any given time, especially his vocal style. three, that delivery was as highly individualized as anything Dylan did--Elvis just had a prettier voice to deliver it with.

Dylan was great, and we was an innovator but he didn't INVENT what you ascribe to him

The value of Bob Dylan is connected to the voice. The 'can't sing' thing.... I think the word 'singer' is used too often, like some people think the word 'genius' is used too often. Dylan really sings. If you don't hear this, just don't bother. The lyrics are good, mostly, fantastic occasionally, but really the point of them is not to let the voice down.

HAhahahahahahahahaha. That made my day. I personally don't enjoy Bob Dylan's music at all. Never have. I've tried, mind you (after a good friend's tireless insistence that in dismissing Bob Dylan that I'm shamefully missing out on the greatest music known to man), but it just isn't there for me. That said, I'd hardly call him "indefensible". If anything. The man's deified to ridiculous degrees, and you're verily taking your life in your hands if you dare say anything against him (or at least around stodgy folkies, roots rockers, aging hippies, self-appointed poetry "slammers", aging rock critics, etc. etc.) I don't think the man should be put to death or anything, but I just don't enjoy his music.

Was Dylan the first real example of the best rock and roll vocal device ever, the SNEER? If so, he deserves canonisation just for that, regardless of any of the other factors. (Thom Yorke and John Lydon to thread.)

Then again, if I like Fred Durst's voice, it should be any surprise I can handle Dylan's.

I wouldn't be too surprised to wake up to similar threads betales, rolling stones and beethoven. its unfortunate but its ilm.

ew

the immediate and sustained turn this thread took for the investigative was just kinda shitty, a lesson to learn from in the future

There is a way to productively discuss these things as men, and evidently there is an urgency to do so, it just involves not waltzing in and saying ‘fuck you’ and accusing people for contributing to rape culture and to the lack of female posters, or making wild assumptions about someone’s character. We are mostly all anonymous here, we don’t know each other personal lives, maybe someone who is tracking down Dylan’s life looking for evidence could also be a victim of sexual assault. If you take the time to read the actual posts, no one has made the claim that Dylan is innocent.

I don’t know, I feel like I have loved this board because it seemed a respite from twitter-like activity but sometimes O think the virus has caught on here too.

discussion of sexual assault is triggering, period. maybe there should be a trigger warning added to the thread title?

yes vhs, the thing for the men to focus on itt is how they're being attacked

come the fuck on

like i said earlier, this time period has been well documented, I think that's one reason you're having so many people chime in

xp

You think attacking people leads to productive conversations? If you believe that the investigative turn is the wrong thing (which is my opinion too btw), do you believe you are going to achieve anything positive by just saying it's shitty and you expect better of posters? It seems to me that's more policing than idk sharing of ideas and explanations.

And my perspective is that searching for and publicly distributing exculpatory evidence—for whatever motive or however non-prejudicially—contributes to rape culture by sending a message that victims of sexual assault need to make sure their accounts of inherently traumatizing and psychologically altering experiences are airtight before coming forward.

I support women coming forward to tell their story. I disagree with you that I or anyone else who discusses this timeline in Dylan's life as contributing to rape culture. Framing it as evidence seems a little presumptuous as well.

the immediate and sustained turn this thread took for the investigative

Welcome to Dylan fandom.

I appreciate your larger point even if I disagree a little bit.

wow the manstigating on this thread is really bumming me out. Trader hand etc otm :-(

it’s 2021

ok I’m off my high horse

I like Trader Hand. It’s even more wild west than my real handle.

It’s always confusing and horrible when someone whose art you’ve loved is accused of something terrible. I get it. How do you process it? What do you do?

I think we owe it to the board to be really careful about how we process it. Going on and on about the different ways that you think the alleged victim’s story doesn’t add up is grotesque. THAT is the “attack” - on every victim of sexual assault. And yeah it’s going to provoke some strong reactions. Or at least it had better.

Considering buying materials in order to continue the sleuthing I think is probably a sign that you are too invested in your image of Bob Dylan as a good guy to have a fair judgment about it. Why go to these lengths? Who possibly could have a fair judgment about it right now? We have to live with this shitty stink around Bob Dylan for awhile and no amount of sleuthing of going to counter that, unfortunately.

I probably have been over-invested in following every angle here - but not because of some image of Dylan a "good guy" (I've never been too interested in his private life) but because the claim is so horrible (and the available details so minimal - we don't even know the plaintiff's "story," just how it's being characterized in the brief) that yes it would be devastating to me as a fan of his music if it has truth to it. Honestly I think you're underplaying the magnitude of what's being alleged. I won't post any more "sleuthing" if it's not welcome here though.

I would get personally skeeved out if people were trying to dig up personal details of the accuser, but I haven't seen anything like that on this thread.

Going on and on about the different ways that you think the alleged victim’s story doesn’t add up is grotesque.

No one is going on about the victim's story, because we don't know the vicitm's story. We do know a lot about the person accused of these crimes, and where they were, and that's what I think some people are not understanding. No one's calling the story into question, we just know about the accusation.

And shaming people for buying a book is not a good look imho

ILX is not perfect but from what i've seen, posters have responded to the numerous accounts of abusive/predatory behavior from musicians in the last few years with sympathy and support for the victims and anger and disappointment towards the musicians, and I have not seen much in the way of demanding more proof or mounting defenses of the accused. I do think this case is an outlier - the alleged offense being 56 years ago, how famous the accused is and was at the time, and the question of whether this could even have taken place as described based on the facts that exist. I totally understand being uncomfortable with 'sleuthing' but I don't think it's terrible, or an attack on all victims of sexual assault, to admit skepticism about the accusation as it stands now. My opinion may change if/when more facts emerge, and perhaps I would need to re-examine my judgment.

And my perspective is that searching for and publicly distributing exculpatory evidence—for whatever motive or however non-prejudicially—contributes to rape culture by sending a message that victims of sexual assault need to make sure their accounts of inherently traumatizing and psychologically altering experiences are airtight before coming forward.

But this is essentially just what our legal system does, and this is a lawsuit that the lawyers want addressed in court. And when those lawyers respond to issues that are certain to come up in court with "we've got blogs" I think there's some reason for skepticism.

not that i'm trying to defend how awful and traumatic our legal system is to victims of sexual assault btw.

I heard a rumour on this very thread that Bob Dylan "makes" people shovel bees down their dick.

oh great comedy just what we need

xp you're right the legal system reproduces rape culture. i don't understand the point or what it has to do with how ordinary people should talk about a case although the legal system is a great example of *how not to do it*

If anyone needs some comedy, it's you

i know i need to lighten up and take a joke and stop being so easily offended eh

the accusation exists in the context of a lawsuit, in our legal system. I think it's reasonable for people to wonder how something is going to hold up in court, especially when the lawyers provide a buffoonish non-answer to pretty obvious questions.

Have you wondered enough yet?

yeah I’ll shut up now

i dont post bc news like this makes me shut down

i can’t even give my energy to speculation of ~any~ kind because it’s just so sad in and of itself

i think that’s the bigger picture as i see it - not that anyone’s accusing or exonerating anyone

but ilx collectively just has this way of intensely interrogating things immediately re subjects that leave me reeling and sometimes it’d be good if you all just took a breath FIRST and read the room as a whole subject-wise, instead of getting all grassy-knolled out about literally everything all the time

thank you VG, otm

vg otm

I haven't been posting because - frankly - I'm very much in the "I hope he didn't do this" camp, and I've felt sick ever since the story broke. And tbh I'm grateful to the people posting about the conflict of dates etc. because it gives me some hope that's letting me, like, go about my day and eat meals and not just curl up in a ball as I wait for more information to emerge. Because as a woman - and speaking only for myself - I would feel devastated and betrayed if it turned out that a male artist whose work I love, and who I've felt a deep sense of personal gratitude toward at many points in my life, turned out to have done something like this. So I'm strenuously hoping he didn't do it, awaiting more information, and doing my best not to completely lose it in the meantime. And I haven't posted because I'm afraid if I say something like that I'll be called a rape apologist, and I'm not good at being in internet fights, I tend to take them personally.

Also, one of the things I generally like about ilx is that people know each other and don't have to make the kind of assumptions of bad faith that you see in, like, large-scale Twitter arguments. And yet on this thread I get the impression people are reflexively assuming bad faith anyway, and that bothers me. So I've stayed quiet because I'm uncomfortable when ilx gets like this. It doesn't have anything to do with thinking ilx is supporting rape culture. Maybe for other people it does, idk. We women are not a monolithic group.

i feel that *hoping they didnt do it* element too, definitely going through a bit of that as well
lily, thank you for stating that so eloquently

that's real, lily <3

I'll be in the camp of "now that we've had a full circle of accusations (Bob Dylan, lawyers, biographers, internet, twitter, ILX, legal system), can we stop panicking, go back to being patient, and leave the alleged victim and accused their full respective rights ?" Or does it have to be a shitstorm all the time.

Personally I won’t post about it (unless/until I guess something definitive happens, if it ever does). Posting here was my way of “processing” and dealing with the pit in my stomach. I have more I could discuss about the emotional impact but I guess we have other threads for that, and the time may not be ripe for a while.

The lawsuit has been permanently withdrawn after the plaintiff asked the federal judge overseeing the case to dismiss it “with prejudice,” meaning it will be permanently closed and cannot be refiled. The move came after she was accused of deleting key messages and threatened with monetary sanctions.

peak Dylan

https://archive.org/details/s-08b_full/02.+THE+MAN+IN+ME.flac

nice!

that's a mean cold irons bound too

This show is pretty freaking great. Can anyone recommend me a complete live show on archive I need to hear from the Larry Campbell-Charlie Sexton period?

If I had to pick one, the one at Halle Münsterland in Münster, Germany on October 1, 2000.

Or, if you prefer Dylan on piano, the one at Pauline Davis Pavilion in Red Bluff, CA, USA on October 7, 2002.

great recordings thank you

i love that live album with the flute. budokan. that is my idiosyncratic favorite.

he appreciates the plasticity of his own songs and is essentially devoted to live performance. i love that.

elsewhere on this site i have written about being at the 1999 show at tramps in new york, which was great (elvis costello was there and got on stage for an encore, singing 'i shall be released'). great audio from the soundboard. incredible version of Visions of Johanna. crowd VEWRY rowdy.

https://www.wolfgangs.com/music/bob-dylan/audio/20022342-814.html?tid=54412

https://www.boblinks.com/072699r.html

i'm sure i remember the flacs being available somewhere, or on youtube

Bizarre Bob Dylan melody -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBe8zZ0OKlk

Only actor/singer George Maharis is credited, but there's also folk duo Joe and Eddie, Dionne Warwick and the Animals (their classic line-up) doing a very not-like-the-Animals-at-all rendition of "It Ain't Me, Babe."

Enjoying “philosophy of modern song” and an accompanying playlist on YouTube.

Extraordinary

hoping for some defenses of the indefensible: bob dylan today