not including hotel bars obv, they are a third thing entirely

I think pubs, even if they don't have a 'Dog and Duck' type name, still have to have enough pubby decor trappings in terms of the mirrors, tables, coving, carpet etc. A pub is maybe just a look to a bar.

pubs have names where you have no idea* why anything wd be called that (partial exception that really isn't: monarch's names, long forgotten military slebs — clearly you do know why, here, except you don't know why STILL... eg who gives a toss enuff abt William IV to go into a place named for him?): by contrast bars have names where you can tell the sensibility being drawn in, for it is here and now and close by in the world

*unless you've researched it or stuff

Someone point me in the direction of the ontological theory that explains how classes of things do not have to be definable by a set of rules. It's family resemblances, innit?

Mark s's quest is entertaining but fruitless.

Unless it's a really *obvious* name. My local pub is named after the palace just down the road, which is also the name of the street it's on. It's definitely a pub.

(as Andrew said, you can just tell).

Is All Bar One a pub or a bar? If the latter, what of the Piano & Pitcher?

Another thing - a pub can't be 'upstairs', 'downstairs' or otherwise tucked away. It must present itself boldly.

eg calling it after a nearby palace: as a naming strategy it's kind of random and self-deprecating surely?

certainly the one in angel IS a bar

all bar one and the pitcher and piano are both bars/restaurants surely? (haven't been in a p&p for ages so forget)

BEING ABLE TO SEE IN: you can see into a bar from the street but not a pub!!

if the food is merely an adjunct activity, on whatever scale, then the carpet stays = no thought has been given to spillage

This might be an exception. I can only think of one other pub with a v. obvious name like that; all the other drinking places named after their location I know are bars.

it's not abt whether they serve food or not, it's about whether serving food is considered so central to the activity that the carpet needs to go

this quest is meaningless unless we accept that some changes cause a bar to become a pub (or vice versa: is that possible?)

(otherwise you just draw up two big lists and say everything in this column is a pub, in that a bar)

caitlin i still don't see why it's an OBVIOUS name: yes i know it's a fairly common naming strategy, but the roots of the reasoning are clouded — why is calling yr pub the same as the area it's in a thing to do?

Pubs have cider on draught. Bars do not. End of debate

I can prove none of this, and I'll be interested if someone can give me counter-examples.

Both.

a bar is bright and horribly clean. Has some sort of weird modern name.

a pub is old and smells of beer. Has a trad sounding name.

I prefer pubs, but then I only ever go to pubs when it is a FAP.

Sometimes pubs become bars after "refurbishment". I was in a bar last night which had previously been a Firkin. Whether Firkins are pubs or not; the new reincarnation of the place is *definitely* a bar.

"let's call our pub the hackney!"
"why would that attract anyone? ppl who live here already know which pubs they want to go to, and ppl who don't are surely by defn not attracted to being in places with the name 'hackney' — or they WOULD live here"
"i know — the name isn't there to attract a clientele, bcz it's a pub and that's not what pub names do!!"
"aha i get it: the hackney it is"

bars usually have the obligatory australian/irish/student barman and they do not sell 4 pint carryouts.

- and don't get me started on giant fuckin jenga players..!

Have you invented a time machine? Can I come?

"wasn't this place called [xxx] last week?" = it is a bar

but then of course the grey area is way bigger than decided area, which is no good to frank bcz not a good guide to how we use the words deep into the grey area, as we clearly do

I was serious about my cider on draught thing. I don't think he can go far wrong with that criterion. Soon he will learn the difference at first sight. Go on, give me counterexamples to the cider rule that don't come from the disputed chain pub/bar area.

cider on draught is an interesting criterion bcz it clearly CAN'T be judged prior to arrival (ie it as an element of "content" rather than "packaging") => i deem it epiphenomenal but only by hunchwork

("content" vs "packaging" is hardly a cast-iron opposition of course, since the ppl attracted by the packaging of an establishment swiftly go on to make up its content)

In a bar, I can ask for a white Russian or some vodka/cranberry combo and get what I've asked for. In a pub, they will have to ask me how to make one or I will take one look around and see that there is no way it's gonna happen so choose something else (the amount of times I have had to tell some pub-ning how to build the perfect Bloody Mary...arrgh).

Also pub staff ask you if you want ice in your drink if it involves shorts and barstaff don't, it's part of the service.

AB1, S&L, P&P are all PUBS albeit 'feminised' pubs. I hate them ALL.

* Unless it's a whisky or brandy.

The feeling The Foundry gives me is that it's aimed quite squarely at a Trendy Hoxton demographic. Edgy, y'know.

Ste: but how many types? one's not enough

the thing is that all the factors (architecture/design, 'content'/decor, clientele, range of products on offer, entertainment facilities, general atmos, historical significance etc.) do not stand up on their own as signifiers, but you have to be able to tick enough boxes for a place to be a proper Pub imo.

there, that's my personal opinion.

this argument is a lot like the 'what makes a big club?' argument.

Key difference for me is defined by their answer to this question: "Can I have a pint of bitter please?"

former can be defined by capacity i guess.

latter by spending potential, i suppose.

you can put a number to both, as your definition, and those near the threshold number are medium sized, which are neither big or small, and then the further from that number the bigger or smaller a club they are.

you can do that to define whether a piece of string is long or short, too. using some form of average (e.g. median) value of all pieces of strings in the world.

http://www.fancyapint.com/main_site/thepubs/pub2178.html

Errrrmmm... *studied*? I don't think so.

i dont often think about the outside. in that photo, it looks like birmingham 1975

which is preferred - bar or table?

This is partly because it's not a "watch the football" pub, it just has a couple of screens which show (apparently) random sporting events. I really like it in there, haven't been in for ages.

Gabbneb are you calling some kind of FAP or did you decide not to?

(I'd be well up (?) for a FAP if persons wanted to go to the trouble, but don't really know my schedule yet. I think I'm going to be free on a sat night (the 25), and perhaps the tuesday or wednesday of that week, but need to hear back from a friend and make some decisions first. I may or may not be going to a quiz night on the Sunday. Don't know where and I'm guessing it's not music-related.)

Foundry remains stubbornly undesignatable for me - scuzzy - check, lots on draft - check, wouldn't order a white russian - check; yet the suspended bondage dolls and narrow demographic. I would just call it a "student pub" and be done with it except it's not right next to any school and everyone in there is about 30.

they fail to mention that its probably one of the cheapest bars in the area, which for me is a great incentive. for that i am uninterested in their opinions on this point.

i may also.....gotocamden

Where is this pub/bar exactly? ;-)