― k3vin k., Thursday, 13 December 2012 05:13 (seven years ago) link
vinsanity nogrant hill yes (college counts too)sheed notmac yesAI.......
― k3vin k., Thursday, 13 December 2012 06:30 (seven years ago) link
actually AI is a yes fuck it
― k3vin k., Thursday, 13 December 2012 06:39 (seven years ago) link
AI for sure
― small-scale fux with (Spottie_Ottie_Dope), Thursday, 13 December 2012 06:41 (seven years ago) link
I'd say a no on tmac myself but bball HOF is pretty lenient
― Clay, Thursday, 13 December 2012 06:44 (seven years ago) link
Personally I say no to all but AI, maybe on Hill. But I bet all but sheed get in
― small-scale fux with (Spottie_Ottie_Dope), Thursday, 13 December 2012 06:52 (seven years ago) link
can someone post
― k3vin k., Tuesday, 4 June 2013 17:38 (seven years ago) link
Is Grant Hill a Hall of Famer? Neil Paine [ARCHIVE]Basketball-Reference.comJune 4, 2013Comment on this story Facebook Twitter
Ladies and gentlemen, start your Hall of Fame debates, because Grant Hill announced Sunday that he was retiring from the NBA after 19 seasons.
Because it involves so many angles -- peak value vs. career production, college contributions vs. the pros, etc. -- Hill's case is going to make for one of the more interesting Hall of Fame discussions in recent memory. To help us sort it all out, we need to turn once again to our Hall Monitor, an inventory of 14 questions designed to assess whether a player deserves to be in the Hall of Fame. (Be sure to also see what ESPN The Magazine says about Hill's credentials here.)
Should Hill make the cut? Read on to find out.
Position: Small forwardWeighted career EWA: 116.2 (typical Hall of Famer -- 129)Weighted career Win Shares Above Replacement: 63.1 (typical Hall of Famer -- 78)Weighted career VORP: 34.3 (typical Hall of Famer -- 38)
1. Was he ever regarded as the best player in basketball? Did anybody, while he was active, ever suggest that he was the best player in basketball?
No, not really. Although a newspaper search from the late 1990s reveals plenty of speculation that Hill would someday supplant Michael Jordan as the game's best player, and Alvin Gentry (Hill's coach at the time with the Detroit Pistons) referred to him as the "best player in the league" in 2000, that was a minority opinion. Hill never finished better than third in MVP voting, nor did he rank better than third in either Estimated Wins Added, Win Shares Above Replacement, or Value Over Replacement Player. Most likely, Jordan passed the baton directly to Shaquille O'Neal instead, with a possible stopover at Karl Malone's place.
2. Was he the best player on his team?
Yes. At age 31, Joe Dumars had slowed down considerably by the time Hill joined the Pistons in 1994, and Hill asserted himself as their best player from his rookie season all the way through his departure from Detroit in 2000. And although injuries marred most of his tenure with the Orlando Magic, he did manage to lead their 2004-05 squad in PER as well.
3. Was he the best player in basketball at his position?
Yes, if briefly. By 1996-97, Hill had surpassed Scottie Pippen as the league's best small forward, a mantle he wouldn't relinquish until Vince Carter made a run at that title during the 1999-2000 campaign. But no matter how you ranked them going into 2000-01, the first of Hill's infamous ankle injuries brought a certain end to his reign that season.
4. Did he have an impact on a number of NBA Finals or conference finals?
No. Hill's Pistons never escaped the first round of the playoffs, and his only contribution to a deep playoff run upon leaving Detroit was as a supporting player, ranking fifth in Win Shares (with a below-average 14.2 PER) on the Suns team that lost the 2010 Western Conference finals to the Lakers.
5. Was he good enough that he could play regularly after passing his prime?
Yes. Hill gamely underwent ankle surgery after ankle surgery throughout his time in Orlando, and nobody would have blamed him if he retired after one particularly scary procedure in 2003, when an infection briefly left him near death. But instead of quitting, Hill fought his way back and became one of the league's better wing role players in a career second-act that included five straight seasons of at least 2,000 minutes from 2007 to 2011.
6. Will he ever be the best eligible basketball player in history who is not in the Hall of Fame?
Probably not. For starters, Jason Kidd (who also retired this week) will be the best player to come out of the 1994-95 rookie class. And it won't get any easier if you look at the next wave of candidates, which includes surefire Hall of Famers Kevin Garnett, Kobe Bryant, Ray Allen and Steve Nash (in addition to dark horse candidates such as Ben Wallace, Tracy McGrady and Chauncey Billups). A lot of names will have to be cleared off the ballot before Hill can be considered the best eligible option.
7. Are most players who have comparable statistics in the Hall of Fame?
Oddly, yes. Players as versatile as Hill (career averages of 16.7 PPG/6.0 RPG/4.1 APG) are pretty rare, so the list of players with the most similar per-game stats to him includes names such as Pippen and James Worthy. And lest you think he did it in a smaller sample, surprisingly enough, Hill actually played 100 more career games than Worthy did.
8. Do the player's numbers meet Hall of Fame standards?
Not quite. Although Hill's all-around averages place him among some Hall of Fame-caliber company, he still has just a 35.5 percent chance of being enshrined, according to Basketball-Reference's Hall of Fame Probability metric. Why the disconnect? Hill's simultaneous collection of benchmarks feels impressive in combination, but none are especially Hall-worthy on their own, and a lack of championship rings hurts as well. Hill also falls just short of the HOF's average standards for induction in terms of weighted career EWA, WSAR, and VORP (see above), which attempt to balance peak performance versus longevity.
9. Is there any evidence to suggest that the player was significantly better or worse than is suggested by his basic statistics?
Because of his lost half-decade in the early 2000s, Hill's stats almost require the same adjustment that World War II-era baseball players need in their Hall of Fame cases. (Luckily, though, the Basketball Hall of Fame doesn't put anywhere near as much stock in "magic numbers" when it comes to raw statistics.) Even in terms of Hill's rate stats, though, he is hurt by losing three to four prime seasons to injury, which causes his prolonged decline phase as a role player to be overrepresented in his overall career averages.
10. Will he be the best eligible player at his position who is not in the Hall of Fame?
There's a good chance, if not simply due to the dearth of quality small forwards to enter the league during his era. Hill's primary competition here is the likes of Glenn Robinson, Michael Finley and Shareef Abdur-Rahim, plus possible holdovers such as Mark Aguirre (and long shots like Bruce Bowen). The only name that should give him trouble in this category is McGrady, although his best years came as a shooting guard, not a small forward.
11. How many MVP-type seasons did he have? Did he ever win an MVP award? If not, how many times was he close?
According to John Hollinger's handy reference guide, a 25.0 PER season befits a "weak MVP candidate," and Hill was at or near that level twice (1996-97 and 1999-2000). He was also arguably a top-5 player in 1998-99 and an outside candidate in 1995-96 and 1997-98 as well, all years in which he garnered MVP votes. The closest he ever came to winning the award was a third-place finish in the 1996-97 voting.
12. How many All-Star-type seasons did he have? How many All-Star Games did he play in? Did most of the players who played in this many All-Star Games go into the Hall of Fame?
Hill was an All-Star seven times, although his 2001 selection was even noted at the time as a sham outcome of fan voting -- Hill played just four (four!) games during that "All-Star" campaign. Nonetheless, 87 percent of eligible players with seven career All-Star Game nods made the Hall of Fame; even if you want to dock Hill that 2001 nod, 69 percent of those with six All-Star Game selections are Hall of Famers.
13. If this player was the best on his team, would it be possible that the team could win an NBA title?
I think so. Certainly Hill's Pistons never went deep into the postseason, topping out with 54 wins and a first-round loss in 1996-97. However, the supporting players on those Hill-era Detroit teams were Lindsey Hunter, Bison Dele, a young Jerry Stackhouse and aging versions of Dumars and Otis Thorpe. With a better surrounding cast (like the one that was shaping up in Orlando in 2000-01), it's no stretch of the imagination to think a Hill-led team could have contended for a title when he was at the peak of his powers.
14. What impact did the player have on basketball history? Was he responsible for any rule changes? Did he introduce any new equipment? Did he change the game in any way? Was his college and/or international career especially noteworthy?
Hill was one of the greatest college players of all time (two-time All-American at Duke, three national title-game appearances, two championships) and got the assist on arguably the most famous shot in NCAA tournament history, which will undoubtedly work in his favor when his number comes up. Hill also won Olympic gold for Dream Team II in 1996, the most underrated version of Team USA ever assembled. Finally, Hill was part of an innovative stylistic trend, joining Pippen as the best of the wave of "point forwards" to emerge in the 1990s. As such, Hill could be viewed as a sort of proto-LeBron James, giving him a special rung on basketball's evolutionary ladder.
It's close, but I think Hill will get in. As we've seen with the case of Ralph Sampson, college accomplishments can weigh heavily on the minds of voters, and Hill had quite a few of those. He also had a very high peak, topping out as nearly the best player in basketball during the late 1990s, and he'll get bonus points for the perseverance he showed in overcoming five ankle surgeries to make a successful comeback. Hill's overall NBA résumé is probably just shy of Hall of Fame standards, but his NCAA career ought to be enough to push him over the top.
― lag∞n, Tuesday, 4 June 2013 21:33 (seven years ago) link
that's pretty otm i think
― k3vin k., Wednesday, 5 June 2013 02:50 (seven years ago) link
― druhilla (k3vin k.), Tuesday, 17 September 2013 19:19 (six years ago) link
^i'd probably go with no fwiw
some twitter talk about billups too. fuck outta here with that imo
― druhilla (k3vin k.), Friday, 20 September 2013 20:30 (six years ago) link
no billups yes cwebb
― lag∞n, Friday, 20 September 2013 20:41 (six years ago) link
cwebb in the hall as a broadcaster imo
― Clay, Friday, 20 September 2013 22:08 (six years ago) link
i have a fear (irrational or not i don't know) that billups will get in
― call all destroyer, Friday, 20 September 2013 22:15 (six years ago) link
how many finals mvps never got in the hof
― Clay, Saturday, 21 September 2013 00:03 (six years ago) link
(cedric maxwell and jojo white by my account)
― Clay, Saturday, 21 September 2013 00:06 (six years ago) link
its funny because there are so many celtics in the hall that really dont deserve to be there why not just go ahead and throw those guys in too
― lag∞n, Saturday, 21 September 2013 00:08 (six years ago) link
Cedric "Cornbread" Maxwell did have a hof nickname, just not a hof career.
― Aimless, Saturday, 21 September 2013 01:50 (six years ago) link
― lag∞n, Friday, September 20, 2013 8:08 PM (Yesterday)
this has basically been the crux of most of the push for an inclusive hall - like we already have girls AAU coaches and shit, just let everyone in i guess, the horse has left the barn
― druhilla (k3vin k.), Saturday, 21 September 2013 05:39 (six years ago) link
obv i disagree and i think only dominant players should be in there. chauncey was never one of the 5 best players in the league
― druhilla (k3vin k.), Saturday, 21 September 2013 05:43 (six years ago) link
he did do that thing where he threw the ball at Kobe's butt tho
― Clay, Saturday, 21 September 2013 05:51 (six years ago) link
they shd just make a new nba hall of fame obvs
― lag∞n, Saturday, 21 September 2013 13:46 (six years ago) link
will draymond green be a hall of famer?http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/23719457/draymond-green-hall-fame-golden-state-warriors
― they call me melo gelo (Spottie), Friday, 8 June 2018 17:08 (two years ago) link
Does Iguodala have a case for the HoF?
I’m one of like two or three players to win 3 nba championships, a finals mvp, an Olympic gold, and a world championship gold and announce a major golf event... and I’m weak as hell to some people!— Andre Iguodala (@andre) August 15, 2018
I would say no as of now but maybe if he snags another ring or two maybe
― InfoWarriors (Spottie), Wednesday, 15 August 2018 19:49 (one year ago) link
announcing the golf event really seals the deal imo
― reggae mike love (polyphonic), Wednesday, 15 August 2018 20:07 (one year ago) link
haha he was feeling himself last weekend.
― InfoWarriors (Spottie), Wednesday, 15 August 2018 20:10 (one year ago) link
forgot about his Finals MVP. Idk he was never top 25 in league was he? Feel like that's a requirement.
― A True White Kid that can Jump (Granny Dainger), Wednesday, 15 August 2018 20:17 (one year ago) link
do they still have the room where theres a bunch of basketball hoops of different heights and distances and a conveyor belt of balls to shoot at them? that was my favorite part when i was a kid
― ciderpress, Wednesday, 15 August 2018 20:20 (one year ago) link
nope been replaced with a twitter beef sim room
― A True White Kid that can Jump (Granny Dainger), Wednesday, 15 August 2018 20:56 (one year ago) link
― InfoWarriors (Spottie), Wednesday, 15 August 2018 21:20 (one year ago) link
bball ref has him at 6.1% hof probability. feel like he's only in if you're grading him on a '60s celtics role player curve, but maybe the 2010s warriors role player curve is the same? his peak was as the best player on some mediocre but interesting sixers teams.
― circles, Wednesday, 15 August 2018 23:57 (one year ago) link
Idk he was never top 25 in league was he? Feel like that's a requirement.― A True White Kid that can Jump (Granny Dainger), Wednesday, August 15, 2018 1:17 PM (three hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― A True White Kid that can Jump (Granny Dainger), Wednesday, August 15, 2018 1:17 PM (three hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
i think he was in those prime years with phi, averaging around 20/5/5 + 2 steals and great defense.
― InfoWarriors (Spottie), Thursday, 16 August 2018 00:10 (one year ago) link
Is Joe Johnson a hall of famer? Because he put up better numbers on better teams for a longer time.
I wouldn't put either of them in.
― EZ Snappin, Thursday, 16 August 2018 00:56 (one year ago) link
lmao come on iguodala is not a hall of famer
― call all destroyer, Thursday, 16 August 2018 00:58 (one year ago) link
awards are great but you need to like, put up numbers to be a hall of famer
if you put someone at iggy's level in then you gotta put in, like, way way way too many people. like is sheed a hall of famer? elton brand? peja? one-time all-stars don't get into the hall at this point or it would be a crowded place.
― Clay, Thursday, 16 August 2018 01:06 (one year ago) link
people are so uncomfortable with the hall of very good as a concept but all those guys have deserving places in it!
― call all destroyer, Thursday, 16 August 2018 01:08 (one year ago) link
if you played ball at a high level for 10+ years fans will remember you for the rest of their lives. that's fantastic and should be celebrated, but it doesn't put you in the h.o.f.
― call all destroyer, Thursday, 16 August 2018 01:09 (one year ago) link
The one-time all-star HOF is at Jamaal Magloire's house.
― EZ Snappin, Thursday, 16 August 2018 01:15 (one year ago) link
I’ll go contrary and say yes bc he had numbers as a yoot and transformed himself into a key role player for multiple title team
If it weren’t for t he finals mvp I’d say no
I also wouldn’t be mad if the final judgement is no and he’s in the hall of very good
― gritty tigger reboot (agent hibachi), Friday, 17 August 2018 15:04 (one year ago) link
His importance to the second two warriors titles is obviously a lot lower and arguably doesn’t do a lot for him but I’m gonna allow it
― gritty tigger reboot (agent hibachi), Friday, 17 August 2018 15:05 (one year ago) link
idk man they looked pretty rough without him in the rockets series. but i think he deserved 6moy two years back and that wouldve helped his case as well.
― InfoWarriors (Spottie), Friday, 17 August 2018 16:23 (one year ago) link
He's very good, which is why he's in the hall of very good.
― reggae mike love (polyphonic), Friday, 17 August 2018 17:27 (one year ago) link
I agree. I think the Hall should be very restrictive and elite. Plus feel there should be an emotional quality to it, rather than just adding up stats and awards in some formula. Like I can't ever seen someone telling their kids/grandkids "Man, you should've seen Iguodala play in his prime, what a time to be alive..."
― A True White Kid that can Jump (Granny Dainger), Friday, 17 August 2018 17:43 (one year ago) link
As a promotional gimmick, the whole Hall of Fame gig has been a screaming success for baseball, football and basketball alike, kind of like the Oscars do for Hollywood. Even the players buy into it as a genuine honor. But, like the Oscars, the honors are bestowed according to no discernible rationale. Nobody needs the HOF to tell us that Kareem or Oscar Robertson were all-time greats and the borderline cases who get in or don't get in seem to do so pretty randomly. I pay almost no attention to it.
― A is for (Aimless), Friday, 17 August 2018 18:13 (one year ago) link
same, just something to shoot the shit about in the offseason
― InfoWarriors (Spottie), Friday, 17 August 2018 18:16 (one year ago) link
Like I can't ever seen someone telling their kids/grandkids "Man, you should've seen Iguodala play in his prime, what a time to be alive..."
― A True White Kid that can Jump (Granny Dainger), Friday, August 17, 2018 1:43 PM (two hours ago) Bookmark
― sprout god (lag∞n), Friday, 17 August 2018 20:09 (one year ago) link
it's true. but i probably wouldnt think that for like 60% of the players in the hall
― InfoWarriors (Spottie), Friday, 17 August 2018 20:32 (one year ago) link
ts: ron harper vs andre iguodala
(i don't actually remember harper well)
― circles, Saturday, 18 August 2018 01:22 (one year ago) link
similar career arcs iirc both did numbers on blah to bad teams then aged into super role players on dynasties
― sprout god (lag∞n), Saturday, 18 August 2018 01:26 (one year ago) link
yup. through the lens of the modern game iguodala is probably more valuable but zoom out and their careers look an awful lot alike.
― call all destroyer, Saturday, 18 August 2018 01:30 (one year ago) link
incidentally i voted for harp in our role player hall of fame....which i will eventually vote iguodala into assuming we are all still alive.
― call all destroyer, Saturday, 18 August 2018 01:31 (one year ago) link
dont think hes eligible
― sprout god (lag∞n), Saturday, 18 August 2018 01:32 (one year ago) link
yeah he was an all-star once pretty sure that rules him out
― Clay, Saturday, 18 August 2018 01:35 (one year ago) link
oh true he made an allstar.
i'd be down w/opening that criteria up to guys who have made 1 allstar, maybe even 2 although i'd want to see a list.
― call all destroyer, Saturday, 18 August 2018 01:35 (one year ago) link
Robert Horry for the right place right time hall of fame.
― Jeff, Saturday, 18 August 2018 01:36 (one year ago) link
'88-'89 cavs that won 57 games with harper, mark price, and brad daugherty all scoring ~19 ppg and lost in the first round to the bulls is basically the perfect hall of very good team.
― circles, Saturday, 18 August 2018 03:12 (one year ago) link
lol, they also had larry nance sr.
― circles, Saturday, 18 August 2018 03:14 (one year ago) link
― circles, Wednesday, August 15, 2018 7:57 PM (two days ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
don’t forget best player on a not-mediocre and interesting 2012 nuggets team...
― k3vin k., Saturday, 18 August 2018 03:18 (one year ago) link
yeah those interesting late 80s cavs teams are classic Very Good. ppl who were going nuts over that hawks team with 4 all-stars should have been thinking about the late 80s cavs. having read bob ryan and terry pluto's 48 minutes 60 times or so back in the day i will always have time for those teams.
― call all destroyer, Saturday, 18 August 2018 03:21 (one year ago) link
no joke a couple days ago this thread had me thinking that iggy might have finished more andre miller lobs that just about anyone and i found this video:
― circles, Saturday, 18 August 2018 03:24 (one year ago) link
god it is so painful to think about how that season ended and him going to the warriors the next year
― k3vin k., Saturday, 18 August 2018 03:26 (one year ago) link
bball ref has him at 6.1% hof probability. feel like he's only in if you're grading him on a '60s celtics role player curve
his #1 comp on bbref is bob cousy (slightly more than a role player but still) so props to you for this
― call all destroyer, Saturday, 18 August 2018 03:26 (one year ago) link
lowe and howard beck talked about a lot of this on the newest lowe post. i didn't realize how weird and opaque the selection for the basketball hall is! like it's not even really public who's on the honors committee that votes on hof entry.
― circles, Monday, 10 September 2018 02:32 (one year ago) link
oh nice gonna check that
― Machine Gunk Jelly (Spottie), Monday, 10 September 2018 02:36 (one year ago) link
the selection process makes the hof really un-fun to talk about tho i thought lowe and beck did as good as you can do.
― call all destroyer, Monday, 10 September 2018 02:58 (one year ago) link
the media may speak it into existencehttps://www.nbcsports.com/philadelphia/nba-insider-tom-haberstroh/andre-iguodala-no-stats-hall-famer
― easy ball shooter (Spottie), Wednesday, 5 June 2019 00:37 (one year ago) link
Has anyone actually visited the Basketball Hall of Fame in Springfield? Friend and I are thinking of a road trip in the Spring to Mass and thinking of stopping there.
― Har Mar Klobuchar (PBKR), Monday, 17 February 2020 23:44 (five months ago) link
i went when my family visited the boston area when i was like 12 or 13 and i remember absolutely nothing about it so there ya go
― Clay, Tuesday, 18 February 2020 02:27 (five months ago) link
ive driven past it innumerable times its right by the highway
― lag∞n, Tuesday, 18 February 2020 04:54 (five months ago) link
the volleyball hall of fame is in the next town over its called the volleyhall if you were wondering
― lag∞n, Tuesday, 18 February 2020 04:55 (five months ago) link
you can see the basketball hof from the train too fwiw
Lol, these aren't exactly ringing endorsements.
― Har Mar Klobuchar (PBKR), Tuesday, 18 February 2020 18:51 (five months ago) link
I've never been there, but I can imagine it. what could be more exciting than seeing wall-sized photos of famous players sweating, displays of old jerseys hung on dressmakers dummies, wall-sized lists of lifetime statistics, and darkened rooms playing endless clips of games played decades ago?
― A is for (Aimless), Tuesday, 18 February 2020 18:58 (five months ago) link
while youre in boston you can go to the jfk library and look at his shoes
― lag∞n, Tuesday, 18 February 2020 19:02 (five months ago) link
JFK's shoes would get lost inside Bob Lanier's shoes.
― A is for (Aimless), Tuesday, 18 February 2020 19:21 (five months ago) link