REM: Classic or dud?

Stones maybe not the most shining example of "unlike REM, who were a different band after key lineup changes"

It's not just that they were a different band, it's who they lost. If the Stones didn't have Charlie and instead hired, I dunno, Jim Keltner for those records they'd be significantly less good. The only truly great thing to come from the post-Berry years is how they bright neon light underscored how essential he was to the band, perhaps more essential than any other rock drummer short of Neil Peart. Because like Peart (I know it's a stretch, but humor me) he made a huge contribution to the songwriting and arranging. A lot of drummers, even the great ones, get their tracks over with early then holiday while the rest of the band finishes the album. But Berry, you could really tell how vital that guy was.

― Josh in Chicago, Monday, November 19, 2012 9:53 PM (5 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

It'd be nice, once the band has been 'asleep' for a few more years, if they worked on some kind of song-by-song book which describes how all of their tracks took shape and who initiated which tracks. I know that since Bill Berry left the band they've been quite open about some of the tracks he had a big hand in... like 'Perfect Circle', 'Everybody Hurts' and 'Man On The Moon' to name three. I know that this kind of thing would be bound to annoy some of the older REM fans who cling to some idea of "mystery", but personally I'm fascinated enough by the material they put out to want to know the details. Y'know, how they worked as a songwriting unit and all that kind of stuff.

And fwiw, I've never rated Charlie Watts as a drummer, but that's a whole 'nother thread.

I remember reading some account of the band being surprised at Berry's piano playing c. "Out of Time." But I'm pretty sure he was contributing more than just drums, including piano, as early as "Murmur."

R.E.M. surely took a hit when they lost Berry, just like the Stones took a hit when they lost Bill Wyman, another unsung hero of his band (Brian Jones was one of those guys who were never going to make 30, and it was inevitable that Mick Taylor and Ronnie Wood were going to come along sooner or later). But, if you believe the accounts in the various biographies, Berry had begun to take less and less of a role in the studio several years before he officially quit.

I guess I just prefer to look at the glass as half-full rather than half-empty after Berry's departure. Yes, his departure hurt, but, even at the very end, without Berry, they were still capable of coming up with what I consider to be classic R.E.M. songs such as "Oh My Heart," "Überlin," and "We All Go Back To Where We Belong." Would their late career have been even better if Berry had stayed? Almost certainly, if Berry had been able to maintain any interest in the band or in music, but, by all accounts he had begun to lose that passion even before his aneurysm, so I'm glad that the other three carried on without him. It's not like he OD'ed or slept with Buck's wife or any of the other reasons that cause bands to lose members or break up. He was just tired of the rock and roll life.

Stones maybe not the most shining example of "unlike REM, who were a different band after key lineup changes"

Post-Brian Jones, sure, though that was a long time coming, and it dovetailed with Jaggers/Richards coming into their own, fully. But the departure of Wyman ... I dunno. The post-Wyman records were a significant improvement!

It'd be nice, once the band has been 'asleep' for a few more years, if they worked on some kind of song-by-song book which describes how all of their tracks took shape and who initiated which tracks. I know that since Bill Berry left the band they've been quite open about some of the tracks he had a big hand in... like 'Perfect Circle', 'Everybody Hurts' and 'Man On The Moon' to name three. I know that this kind of thing would be bound to annoy some of the older REM fans who cling to some idea of "mystery", but personally I'm fascinated enough by the material they put out to want to know the details. Y'know, how they worked as a songwriting unit and all that kind of stuff.

The liner notes to the Part Truth, Part Lies, Part Garbage greatest hits album go into some detail on this subject. Buck talks about who wrote what parts of "Driver 8" and "Man on the Moon," for example. There's also a good bit of discussion of who wrote what in the R.E.M. biography Fiction.

Yeah, Berry plays piano on "Perfect Circle," along with Mills.

It Crawled From The South is very good for detail in this respect

Post-Brian Jones, sure, though that was a long time coming, and it dovetailed with Jaggers/Richards coming into their own, fully. But the departure of Wyman ... I dunno. The post-Wyman records were a significant improvement!

As a big fan of both the Stones and R.E.M. - maybe my two favorite bands, ever - I think that Wyman was a lot like Berry in that he was kind of an invisible man within his band while he was in it, but his departure robbed his band of some indefinable chemistry. Furthermore, if you believe Wyman's accounts, anyway, Wyman had a Berry-like behind-the-scenes hand in writing some of the Stones' biggest songs, including "Jumping Jack Flash," for which Wyman claims to have come up with the signature riff.

Yeah, I've often thought that Bill was playing more than drums as early as Murmur. 'Perfect Circle', to me, sounds like it was written on the piano, rather than on a guitar and then being adapted to the piano, if you know what I mean?

Helped that Berry was probably as good as Buck was at the guitar when the latter joined REM (although some think PB would deliberately exaggerate his rudimentary skills at this time)

I guess I just prefer to look at the glass as half-full rather than half-empty after Berry's departure. Yes, his departure hurt, but, even at the very end, without Berry, they were still capable of coming up with what I consider to be classic R.E.M. songs such as "Oh My Heart," "Überlin," and "We All Go Back To Where We Belong." Would their late career have been even better if Berry had stayed? Almost certainly, if Berry had been able to maintain any interest in the band or in music, but, by all accounts he had begun to lose that passion even before his aneurysm, so I'm glad that the other three carried on without him. It's not like he OD'ed or slept with Buck's wife or any of the other reasons that cause bands to lose members or break up. He was just tired of the rock and roll life.

― Driver 8, Monday, November 19, 2012 10:08 PM (6 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Oh yeah, absolutely. And if I recall, I do remember them doing an online interview (with Bill), shortly after Bill had announced that he didn't want to continue with the group and it was clear there was very much a mutual respect there. I thought it was very gentlemanly and quite refreshing, actually, to know that it wasn't a massive fall out. That's one of the things that seperated R.E.M. from a lot of bands, for me.

As for the material they made without Bill: I've always liked Accelerate in spite of what other people have said about the record in the past. I think Up is overlong but contains some great songs, like 'Walk Unafraid', 'Hope' and 'At My Most Beautiful', and very recently I came around to Reveal after a good few years of not thinking too highly of it. Really, out of 15... (FIFTEEN!) albums, Around The Sun is the only one I struggle to get through from start-to-finish.

http://www.remsongmaker.com/

Cute! And, every third click or so, shockingly convincing.

Dreams of Elysian
Listen, listen to the holler
Take a fortune, take a fortune
Twisting tongues, got a stripe

A matter of course, Jefferson, drive

Has this been linked on ILM before?

Footage that surfaced late last year, live in Atlanta in '81 reputedly the earliest know live footage of the band.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyUvmu1IIss

Holy shit!

For reals!

I've always defended REM (not like I've been in that many arguments about them really), I thought Around The Sun had plenty of fine moments, but Accelerate and Collapse Into Now had nothing that held my interest at all, competent enough but nothing I would recommend maybe except "Man Sized Wreath". Rather than being "a return to form" I thought they were the nadir.

I still think Up is their best album, I know there is a cult of people who say the same. The omnipresence and overplayedness of the band takes something away from the 90s-00s era, but I think New Adventures/Up era is just as good as their earliest stuff, maybe better.

Wow that video

I love New Adventures In Hi-Fi from start-to-finish. Up much less so.

Peaked in 84, remained steady through 91, irrelevant after that.

challenging opinions itt

I mean say what you will but automatic for the people was a cultural force to the point that an honest to god andy kaufman biopic titled man on the moon actually got made and released and viewed in theaters by people

i listened to man on the moon on the way home and thought "what a finely crafted pop song"

I'm with Robert, "Up" is an album worth returning to. It's notable that their only Peel session is drawn from that album.

"The Great Beyond" is one of my x favorite later tracks.

Really hope they reissue all the fan club material.

One argument I can remember was with a girl who denied "Man On The Moon" was about Andy Kaufman, despite his name being in the lyrics and the song being all about him.

Can that peel session be found on disc? Is it anything special?

This may have been discussed earlier but does anyone remember that there was the possibility of an acoustic version of Reveal? I recall getting the first single "Imitation Of Life" and the acoustic b-sides were incredible, I thought this might be a sign that this would be the best thing they ever did, but it was just pretty good. I think Peter Buck said that the acoustic version of the album may have been much better than the standard version.

I've mysteriously lost my 2 disc best of In Time, mostly worthwhile for "Fretless". A few of their fan club singles had some really good stuff too, but I never got the impression that all their odds and ends were worth tracking down. But "Fretless" is an essential for fans, I think.

I found out that "Fretless" is a rejected track from Out Of Time

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Je_EDhaqSY0

xpost re the Peel session … I'd stopped listening to Peel by this point. But earlier in REM's career he had actively disliked them, and given that the session was a live show in the BBC Radio Theatre - where they do the special shows by prestige acts – rather than four tracks recorded in Maida Vale, I wouldn't be madly surprised if it had turned out to be a Peel session by default, ie the BBC committeed to a live thing as part of the REM promo campaign, and Peel was felt to be the most suitable home for it.

I found out that "Fretless" is a rejected track from Out Of Time

it's amazing that anyone could choose radio song over fretless. i guess that after they went to all the effort of getting krs-one to contribute they didn't want to leave it off the album, but jeeezus you guys, sunk cost, sunk cost

I would have loved to have heard a faster, more electric take on 'Fretless'. There's something about that chorus that would lend itself well to being "rocked up".

I love "Up." Coincidence or not, the way the songs are grouped on the back cover really makes sequencing sense, like three great EPs.

http://www.doohan-covers.com/Audio/REM_Up_back.jpg

It's their final album, afaic.

I could easily live without 'Sad Professor', 'You're In The Air' and 'Diminished'. 'Why Not Smile' is alright, I guess, but hardly earth shattering.

When it came out, "Up" sounded really fresh compared to Britpop and other guitar bands.It felt like Stipe fronting a new band, actually. Not earth-shattering but very different and it really works for me.

The Peel session is a proper one recorded in Maida Vale, or so I thought. It's not revelatory like some Peel sessions are but it definitely captures that quick recording vibe and enhances the tracks.

xp Sad Professor is probably the last great REM song imo.

I should preface this by saying: I love R.E.M. Fables of Reconstruction is my favorite album of theirs and Reckoning isn't far behind.

That being said, I am very much a big defender of their 90's material. I've maintained since I first heard it in 2001 that Up was really their last great album. But New Adventures is just as good. Do not forget this.

That NYE 1999 split could have been perfect. From what was obviously a joke....jeez...I dunno.

xpost I tell a lie: you're right. The BBC Radio Theatre show and the Peel session were different things on the same day. I"m genuinely astonished he had them in for a session - I remember him upbraiding his listeners for asking him to play them in the 80s.

Holy jeez that 1981 footage. Fantastic.

I totally rep for "Sad Professor." I think it's one of Stipe's better character pieces, the critique comes through as self-loathing and makes the guy sympathetic, it's very open-hearted. Also I like how the chorus pairs this sense of arrival and drama, musically, with a very observational, scene-setting kind of lyric: Late afternoon, the house is hot.

"I could easily live without 'Sad Professor', 'You're In The Air' and 'Diminished'. 'Why Not Smile' is alright, I guess, but hardly earth shattering."

I really adore all those songs, I think "Diminished" is incredible. The whole album has an atmosphere unlike anything else they did.

Peter Buck and Mark Eitzel made an album called West at the time. Eitzel was up for it being a Eitzel/Buck band name but Buck didn't want that (I think he just regarded himself as the same as any other Eitzel backup guy) but it would have sold much better if Buck's name was on the thing and Eitzel might have been a bit bigger than he is. I think Buck even toured with Eitzel (there is a story about Buck being annoyed by Eitzel asking audience members up to dance with him on stage).
It isn't even one of my favourite Eitzel albums but it has an amazing track called "Helium", which sounds like a companion piece to Up's "Suspicion".

The idea of constructing a rock album almost entirely out of synths was pretty novel at the time Up was released. Now that everyone's doing it it's barely worthy of comment but there are still some strange and beautiful songs from that album. It's the one moment from their post-Automatic era that comes close to evoking the strangeness of their early records, but in a totally different way.

It isn't even one of my favourite Eitzel albums but it has an amazing track called "Helium", which sounds like a companion piece to Up's "Suspicion".

Hey wow, you're right! The Eitzel track came out in 97 while "Up" came out in 98, so the timing makes sense. The keys and the gentle strumming on the track make it easy to hear Stipe singing it as well. Good catch.

Also, how are the B-sides associated with Up?

I always liked the run of songs from 'At My Most Beautiful' to 'Walk Unafraid' and I also love 'Daysleeper' but the rest of Up doesn't really work for me. It is a long time since I listened to the whole thing though.

Yeah the tracklisting doesn't really work at all (Suspicion is such a boring song) but that particular run you mentioned is possibly the best section. You're In The Air is still lovely. The last couple of songs are probably my favourite, but I'm not sure I could listen to the whole thing back-to-back any more.

It's the one moment from their post-Automatic era that comes close to evoking the strangeness of their early records

I'm not sure what in the pre-Automatic era (or on Automatic itself) evoked the strangeness of the early records. (I'm assuming we're talking about "Stumble" and "Old Man Kensey" and "Feeling Gravitys Pull" and things?)

The most obvious strange tracks on the later records would be "Blue" on the last album and then, I don't know, "Sing for the Submarine?" "The Outsiders?"