REM: Classic or dud?

dunno, out of time and aftp are pretty equal in my mind. and they both have a skippable opening track.

Out of Time is still for me in the highest REM tier, along with Reckoning & probably AFTP.

Out of Time has "Country Feedback" on it, so it rules, basically.

Yeah, I love its highs as much as any R.E.M.

"Drive" - 'skippable', heh? ...o well wotevah, dude:P

will there ever be a groundswell of love for REM's latter days i wonder, now that they're gone? guess i can see it happening.

― tylerw, Wednesday, November 7, 2012 2:41 PM (Yesterday)

So, I was thinking about this question today and have to question the framing of it. R.E.M. was a very popular group for a long period of time. I'm sure I can look on Amazon or iTunes and there will be plenty of four and five star reviews for every single post-Bill Berry album. I think I've also had enough personal experiences to not be surprised by someone telling me they love Around the Sun (a number one album in Austria, Germany, Italy, Sweden, Switzerland, Norway, and the U.K.).

So critical consensus ends up striking me as an irrelevant sample size, perhaps especially so in this case. I always remember a photo I saw from an Eastern European tour in the early '00s where someone was holding up a sign that said, "Reveal Changed My Life." R.E.M. was a band that inspired that kind of thing a lot more than the critical discourse around them acknowledges and for a lot longer - perhaps for their entire existence.

Yeah, I've had the same reaction seeing concert footage of their 2000s days generally - - playing all over the world to gigantic arena crowds, audiences not so invested in what passes for street cred in like US/Europe indie circles or whatever. To them REM are this great, unstoppable band. Dunno if that'll ever penetrate back into the English-language conventional-wisdom though.

I like Accelerate and Collapse Into Now quite a bit more than Reveal, Around the Sun, or Up.

Collapse Into Now is that much more powerful now that you can see how much of it was intended as a goodbye.

I find much of Collapse Into Now to be as good as anything they ever did - "Überlin," "Oh My Heart," "That Someone Is You," "Blue," etc.

Was very disappointed in Buck's recent solo album, however: what it revealed to me was just how much the whole was greater than the sum of the parts, even after Berry left. Without Stipe, Buck, McCaughey, and Mills indulge in the kind of boring 60s rock homages that you would expect them to.

I love Out Of Time but in hindsight it seems a pretty baffling 4x platinum "breakthrough"

Out Of Time is one i should post in that 'love the songs, hate the album' thread

my first "Classic or Dud" question!

"Out of Time" definitely boasts the largest discrepancy between highs and lows of any R.E.M. album.

― Josh in Chicago, Thursday, November 8, 2012 4:41 PM (2 days ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I can definitely agree with this. The tracks on Out Of Time that I love, I really really love. The ones I dislike, well, I don't *hate* them, but I could definitely live without hearing them again.

I don't agree with the guy who said that New Adventures In Hi-Fi was a 'sleeper critical hit', though. From what I recall, most of the reviews of the album at the time (here in the UK, at least) were positive. It was also a #1 album and 'E-Bow The Letter', an INCREDIBLY perverse choice for the first single, still made it to #4 in the singles chart. I've personally always liked the album, and I'd go as far as saying it's one of my Top 3 favourite R.E.M. albums.

I do think it took time for the reputation of "New Adventures" to settle as high as it has. Like, at the time, I don't recall that album instantly finding its way into anyone's Top 3 R.E.M. status. Hence the "sleeper" tag.

Per reviews, I want to say it wasn't until after "Up," or at least c. "Up," that R.E.M. reviews began to take on an air of apology or excuse, coming off as reviews of the R.E.M. albums people wanted them to be rather than the albums they were. Which, to the band's credit, is still a respectful attribute few acts on the downward turn of a parabola earn.

yeah it placed at #11 on Pazz & Jop, which is not bad until you consider that the three albums before it all placed at #3. their critical profile at the time was diminished as quickly as their commercial profile.

referring to New Adventures, i mean.

up until that point the only R.E.M. album that missed the P&J top ten was Green

Every late period REM album has something to offer (even Around the Sun). It's tough to think highly of them in light of the early stuff but if you can consider of them outside the greater legacy, they're not a bad batch of albums. I have said before but I think Reveal gets a real bum rap. It's a great record.

The live disc on the "Document"-reissue sounds really, really good. Intense, energetic, and great renditions. Well worth checking out.

Every late period REM album has something to offer (even Around the Sun)

Yes. "Leaving New York" and "I Wanted To Be Wrong" are brilliant. I also like "High Speed Train" and "Aftermath" quite a bit. The album as a whole is a reflection of where they were at that point in time, as every album that they made is. I actually prefer Around the Sun in all its messed-up, mid-life crisis, glory, to the "let's give the fans what (we think) they want" reaction that was Accelerate.

"Out of Time" definitely boasts the largest discrepancy between highs and lows of any R.E.M. album.

Agree again. "Low" may the single worst song they ever released. I'm not a fan of "Radio Song" or "Endgame," either. But the highs - "Losing My Religion," "Near Wild Heaven," "Belong," and "Half a World Away" - are great.

The live disc on the "Document"-reissue sounds really, really good. Intense, energetic, and great renditions. Well worth checking out.

I saw them on that tour, and it was a pretty great show. But those arena shows were the death of them. The arena slog resulted in a disinterest in playing together that was palpable on everything from Green on. Out Of Time was the end of the line for me (although New Adventures has a decent moment or two).

I remember an Up-era interview where one the band, (Mills possibly) suggested one of the reasons New Adventures didn't sell that well was because casual fans were put off by the idea of an new album partly recorded in soundchecks and dressing rooms. So nothing to do with it's predecessor alienating the many who bought their biggest album and realising a wilfuly obscure, tune-free track as lead single.

those arena shows were the death of them. The arena slog resulted in a disinterest in playing together that was palpable on everything from Green on

I disagree. First of all, they didn't tour behind Out of Time and Automatic, so I think their batteries were recharged when they did tour behind Monster. And they used the Monster tour to do what they used to do in the good old I.R.S. days - i.e., write and road-test the next album while on tour behind the last one, with the result that New Adventures was their last unquestionably great album. I like a lot of what followed after Berry left, and Up is great in its own way, but New Adventures is the great R.E.M. "rock" album that Monster was supposed to be, and the reason it's great is that they wrote it on tour instead of in a rehearsal studio (or in the actual studio).

I remember an Up-era interview where one the band, (Mills possibly) suggested one of the reasons New Adventures didn't sell that well was because casual fans were put off by the idea of an new album partly recorded in soundchecks and dressing rooms

If they were casual fans, how would they have known that New Adventures was recorded in sound checks? It would seem to me that the definition of a casual fan is someone who doesn't keep up with that level of minutiae. Far more likely that, as you note, that "E-Bow" was a challenging first single, although "Losing My Religion" and "Drive" weren't the most obvious first singles from their albums, either. But they could get away with releasing an acoustic dirge as a first single in '92, whereas they could no longer get away with that in '96.

I still maintain that "Bittersweet Me" should have been the lead single from New Adventures.

Yeah. Losing My Religion was an unusual smash hit, but it undoubtedly launched them into bigger leagues, especially internationally. Drive was tuneful enough to release while they were riding high, E-Bow The Letter has no tune to speak of.

I've always felt a kind of weird resentment to that particular song, mainly because was hyped even by friends as some kind of mind-blowing art single despite not being very good. Two years later came Daysleeper.

i love playing armchair a&r about what an album's singles COULD have been but i dunno if there was any magic sequence of singles that would've drastically improved the initial response to New Adventures -- i love "Bittersweet Me" but i dunno if it would've slayed as a lead single. "New Test Leper" might've come off like Automatic Redux and "Wake Up Bomb" might've come off like Monster Redux. if you look at my old commercially disappointing major label rock/alternative albums of 1996 poll, which New Adventures won, i think there's a case to be made that alt-rock as a whole was in a sales freefall that year and there's a good chance neither REM nor any of their contemporaries could possibly be as big in 96 or thereon as they'd been in 91-95.

Then again, I would have said Electrolite.

"E-Bow" def one of their best songs, though. It's a amazingly strange thing. They never made anything like it again ( probably not before either, for that matter. It's pretty singular)

Several xposts

yeah think landscape had changed, i can remember that alot of ppl reading success of alanis, hootie, and in a different way beck at the time as market wanting to move on from altrock, think delayed reaction to monster was a factor and choice of 'e-bow' (which i do love) as first single played a huge role as well.

They never made anything like it again

I think I only played it twice, but 'Blue' struck me as Son Of E-Bow.

On second thought, I actually might not know their post-Berry output well enough to know if they made anything like it again. You may very well be right.

Just listened again, it's not the only old song it's reminiscent of
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cP3aXrtTzt8
Oh and Patti Smith is on it

Thing with New Adventures I noticed a lot of sniping from journos, esp British.."wait a minute..they're back again? fuck off"

This was bad timing around Britpop's biggest commercial year. Too American, too old (as a band), too much association with the musical landscape pre-1995.

It was reviewed pretty well amongst the usual weeklies/monthlies If I remember. I'm not sure where I got sleeper 'critical' hit...it's kind of a 'sleeper' album in many ways anyway, the cover, the songs, the attitude. To me, it suggested an older band, who'd had been around a while, and were comfortable (enough) with that.

I think the general under the radar status and release of New Adventures has led to some idea that it wasn't well regarded at the time of release or at any point since...when it pretty much has been at every point. The fact it was released in 1996 is key really. But then REM wouldn't have released an album like that before then, so..

iirc it got 4.5 stars in Rolling Stone, made Spin's top 20 of the year. the "sleeper" status is definitely based on its flop sales

I disagree. First of all, they didn't tour behind Out of Time and Automatic, so I think their batteries were recharged when they did tour behind Monster. And they used the Monster tour to do what they used to do in the good old I.R.S. days - i.e., write and road-test the next album while on tour behind the last one, with the result that New Adventures was their last unquestionably great album. I like a lot of what followed after Berry left, and Up is great in its own way, but New Adventures is the great R.E.M. "rock" album that Monster was supposed to be, and the reason it's great is that they wrote it on tour instead of in a rehearsal studio (or in the actual studio).

― Driver 8, Saturday, November 10, 2012 7:43 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I agree re: batteries recharged for Monster tour, and the subsequent success of New Adventures (parts of which I love). But one of the things I loved most about them was the quirky drive that Berry provided, and how the other members worked from that. That dynamic diminished and eventually vanished completely as the halls got bigger.

spin kinda trashed it in original review though, there was a definite (albeit slight, esp in comparison to what came post-berry) backlash at the time, dero wrote some slam piece that got attn, the jefferson holt shit went down. it's rep is strong (acclaimed has it #13 for year, #173 for decade, #917 all-time, which is comparable to lifes rich pageant, better than fables or monster) but i think if it had actually been their last album it's rep would be even higher, it's definitely in my top five for them. i do wonder if they'll ever come back into fashion.

xpost tarfumes i think another factor ppl overlook besides move to arenas (and i do wonder if that touring aspect and contract aspect it must be said isn't there what happens differently - do they make another record in the oot/aftp vein? do they spend the post-berry years making weirder records?) is buck moving out of athens post-divorce after aftp.

re: that driver 8 quote i do remember when i first heard and was disappointed by up thinking 'well automatic perfected oot, and new adventures perfected monster so maybe the next rem will be great'. didn't happen. i've come around on up some, when i finally made my up/reveal mix up ended up dominating it. meanwhile the murmur trestle is pretty much definitely coming down soon, what remains of the rem church will be torn down soon after a fire, weaver d's might be closing, and there isn't a radio station you can pick up in athens that plays any rem.

xp Good point about Buck's relocation. I also remember Mills saying something in their "Behind the Music" about how bigger halls required broader gestures. That just confirmed one of the sources of my disappointment with their post-Lifes Rich Pageant (or, depending on my mood, post-Document) records.

Also, Stipe became less interesting to me as a vocalist when he started enunciating on Pageant (at IRS' insistence, rumor had it).

huh, never heard that irs insistence thing though it makes sense - it's a definite stumbling block to mainstream success. there's a pretty huge gap for me personally between chronic town-murmur-reckoning and everything else. not a knock on the later stuff but that early stuff will always always be my fave, and the difference between what they sounded like live those early days vs later is night and day. when i was in high school i used to write 'please make another record with mitch easter' on a postcard and slip it thru the mail slot at their office all the time.

Never forget:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2CERhzm6t7I

i think if it had actually been their last album it's rep would be even higher

definitely, monster/new adventures would have made a good presence/ittod

huh, never heard that irs insistence thing though it makes sense

I mean, it might be an urban legend, but the difference between Stipe's approach on Fables vs. Pageant is pretty stark.

when i was in high school i used to write 'please make another record with mitch easter' on a postcard and slip it thru the mail slot at their office all the time.

hahaha. That rules.

rem def copped to don gehman giving stipe shit during the recording of pageant, but I never heard IRS did

and even if Gehman didn't give Stipe shit it's musically impossible to mumble through a Gehman production.

I like the idea of Miles Copeland sitting Stipe down with Synchronicity and saying "listen to how well he enunciates every syllable! you can't argue with 8 million sold."