Hilary Duff: Joy for pre-teens, not just Humbert Humbert

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"but there is an element of "blah, indie rock!" beyond the Lex complaining about boys with guitars."

"blah, indie rock!" is a perfectly valid reason to listen to stuff that isn't indie rock!

― scott seward, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:58 (sixteen years ago) link

someone brought up t.v. on the radio. i can't remember who. i think that's the only reason a comparison was made.

― scott seward, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:59 (sixteen years ago) link

but they aren't questioning the right of bob dylan boosters to exist - there's a diff between "this lindsay lohan song sucks" and "i find the very existence of a teenpop thread to be creepy and unbearable"

i've never heard aly & aj but i do think that any given song off the paris hilton album, maybe including the dodgy rod stewart cover, pisses all over everything i've ever heard by bob dylan/rolling stones/beatles

^^^the kind of thing which will get called "wilful contrarianism" or "annoying tired canon-upheaval" when it's actually just something i genuinely think

― lex pretend, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:00 (sixteen years ago) link

Play six degrees of separation here, jaymc...do the Killers have anything to do with TV on the Radio? At least in a way that Hilary Duff doesn't? So then how could "Beat of My Heart," which is better than any Killers song I've ever heard (before their last album), not have anything to do with TV on the Radio? Or would you make an argument that the Killers have as much "less to do with" TV on the Radio as Hilary Duff?

― dabug, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:00 (sixteen years ago) link

what would a thread about the people posting about bob dylan involve, i wonder.

― Tim Ellison, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:00 (sixteen years ago) link

(Also, what scott said...I was responding directly to the comparison that was made on this thread)

― dabug, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:01 (sixteen years ago) link

the right of bob dylan boosters to exist

No one questioned the right of anyone to exist!

― Tim Ellison, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:02 (sixteen years ago) link

What do TV on the Radio sound like, incidentally?

i only ever heard the first album but from what i recall the answer is "an unlistenable mess, all things thrown into the mix at the excat same pitch with little to no regard for how they sound together; a singer who sounds like he's being tortured; like muse but without any of the tunes"

― lex pretend, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:02 (sixteen years ago) link

"blah, indie rock!" is a perfectly valid reason to listen to stuff that isn't indie rock!

Of course it is! But it's not a very good criticism.

― jaymc, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:02 (sixteen years ago) link

*meaning Hilary sounded like pre-Sam's Town Killers. I didn't actually like Sam's Town very much.

― dabug, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:02 (sixteen years ago) link

weird no one's admitting this is all contextual to ilm.

― Eppy, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:02 (sixteen years ago) link

maybe that goes without saying.

― Eppy, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:03 (sixteen years ago) link

i think the non-teenpop people are the defensive ones. they are suspicious and don't like to be tricked! chuck eddy made them buy a big & rich album once and they have never gotten over it!

― scott seward, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:03 (sixteen years ago) link

I was sort of hoping a TV on the Radio fan would answer that Lex!

― Groke, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:03 (sixteen years ago) link

And, again, people on the teenpop thread don't WRITE things like "TV on the Radio is way worse than Hilary Duff"! I wrote it here because I'm all agitated by this thread (and specifically by you bringing up the AF review, which was kind of annoying AND misrepresented what I actually wrote about that -- off-topic -- subject, no offense) and bored at work.

― dabug, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:04 (sixteen years ago) link

tom they sound like ar kane X american indie rock essentially

― strongohulkington, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:05 (sixteen years ago) link

hilary duff is better than nas

― Eppy, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:05 (sixteen years ago) link

feedback melodies + looped mechnical drums (though more live drums on the newer stuff) + falsetto singing

― strongohulkington, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:05 (sixteen years ago) link

scott, that's reducing things, no? it's not at all about "i heard this ashlee simpson song and i just don't understand WHYYYYYY?"

― Tim Ellison, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:06 (sixteen years ago) link

i just thought people had gotten beyond the whole "you REALLY like that, seriously??? why???" attitude that normal people have. especially on ilm where frothy pop has never been a four letter word. but there seem to be many reasons why people have a problem with that thread.

― scott seward, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:09 (sixteen years ago) link

If Hilary sounds anything like the first Killers album (which had three pretty amazing singles), I'd love to hear more of her stuff.

Dave, I don't doubt that Hilary Duff and TV on the Radio may have certain things in common (I mean, they're both essentially making pop/rock music), but I hope you'll agree that that point is not obvious (if it were more obvious, I would think that their demographics would overlap more), and since that's the case, the statement "Hilary is better than TVOTR" on its own, without further explanation, seems intentionally provocative.

― jaymc, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:10 (sixteen years ago) link

Jay is the statement "TVOTR is better than Hilary Duff" also intentionally provocative? Obviously on ILM it is!

― Groke, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:11 (sixteen years ago) link

well, i mean, honestly, have you yourself gotten over it? why WOULD someone get over it? (or is it just a question of not vocalizing it out of a sense of decorum?) seems like a natural process of trying to understand other people.

2xp

― Tim Ellison, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:11 (sixteen years ago) link

(And also DM, I apologize for bringing up the Arcade Fire review. It's possible I'm completely misremembering, because what I recall is a paragraph-long post where you said "Ick, this is dull, why did I ever like them? All right, moving on...")

― jaymc, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:12 (sixteen years ago) link

If Hilary sounds anything like the first Killers album (which had three pretty amazing singles), I'd love to hear more of her stuff.

i don't actually hear too much of it myself but i know others, esp abby, argue that early hilary is basically modelled on the killers' sound

(i think early hilary is untethered and light and breezy where the killers plod)

― lex pretend, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:12 (sixteen years ago) link

Jay is the statement "TVOTR is better than Hilary Duff" also intentionally provocative? Obviously on ILM it is!

Yes, I said upthread that the reverse irritates me, too.

― jaymc, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:13 (sixteen years ago) link

we could go back to the question i asked at the start of this! jaymc check out 'beat of my heart', 'wake up', 'the math' and 'come clean' ASAP

― lex pretend, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:13 (sixteen years ago) link

OK, sorry, the thread was moving fast at that point!

― Groke, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:14 (sixteen years ago) link

hey why is there a separate hip-hop thread when everyone knows that's not real music anyway lolol. that's like creepy white negro shit huh?

― Eppy, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:15 (sixteen years ago) link

8,004,327 posts and I still don't know if I should get the new Hilary. But I want to thank the Miranda Lambert claque for boosting the album of the year.

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:16 (sixteen years ago) link

Is anyone on this thread trying to understand the teenpop thread posters? Like, I haven't seen the actual thread quoted once, most of the arguments coming from "what's wrong with the teenpop thread" are coming from knee-jerky comments in THIS discussion, e.g. "TVOTR is a million times suckier than Hilary Duff, who is a goddess and better than Bob Dylan."

xpost (ha, pedophilia's nuthin, if you really want me to get defensive, just mention AF...think I overreacted upthread tho so sorry bout that. FWIW, that post was about me remembering why I liked them in the first place -- and still do -- and comparing that reaction to what (I thought) they were doing on their new album. And I know I'm right, so there's no reason to argue further on this point.)

― dabug, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:17 (sixteen years ago) link

New Hilary's great! Two or three dull tracks (but not bad), try "Gypsy Woman" for wtfness, "Dignity" for dance-pop goodness, and "Happy" for freestyle-inflected dance-pop goodness, then go from there.

― dabug, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:18 (sixteen years ago) link

And "Outside of Me" for P!nk-penned half-dance half-confessional (Hilary gap-bridger) goodness.

― dabug, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:19 (sixteen years ago) link

every time I start to see someone's point, they rep for something like "Beat Of My Heart," which is one of the worst songs I've ever heard. although it's kind of fun to sing along with the horrible "AWAAY AWAAAAY" part.

― Alex in Baltimore, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:20 (sixteen years ago) link

i dig "with love". i haven't heard it on the dancey/top40 station here yet, but i could definitely hear it on there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhgLoanz1b4

― scott seward, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:21 (sixteen years ago) link

even jess might like "with love"!

― scott seward, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:21 (sixteen years ago) link

ew Hilary's great! Two or three dull tracks (but not bad), try "Gypsy Woman" for wtfness,

not Crystal Waters...

thanks, dabug and scott!

"With Love" is ok, but it's got a Gwen Stefani "Crash" vibe to it.

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:23 (sixteen years ago) link

that song reminds me of the mall.

― Tim Ellison, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:24 (sixteen years ago) link

No, much more wtf than Crystal Waters (tho maybe she out-wtf's it in her own special way)...the gypsy is "bringing down the family name"!!! WTF cartoon racism!!

― dabug, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:25 (sixteen years ago) link

"She can swallow knives/ She can swallow lives/ Golden black stare/ But the night of your demise"!!!! Also, bookended with a totally out of context Churchill quote: "The battle of France is over" w/ Hilary comment.

― dabug, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:26 (sixteen years ago) link

I guess my issue is often that the songs/singers being talked about just sound really feeble to me, no "pop transcendence" or big hooks or much of anything. I understand why labels sign and market teenage singers, but unless they can sing better than "good for a 15-year-old" or whatever, I'm usually not interested. Same reason I'm happy that no under 18 contestants on American Idol go the distance, unless they've clearly got professional-level skills like Jordin Sparks.

― Alex in Baltimore, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:26 (sixteen years ago) link

which brings us back to Hilary Duff being Sanjaya Skeletor

― Alex in Baltimore, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:27 (sixteen years ago) link

Every time someone wants hooks, I refer them to that Lester Bangs essay...

Even better than a big hook, "Girlfriend"'s got personality. It's also the cleverest Stones rip I've heard in years.

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:28 (sixteen years ago) link

yeah, with the talk about good voices in this genre, i just think jeez, i REALLY saw a good singer when i saw lavender diamond play the other day. always comin' back to indie as the pwnage!

― Tim Ellison, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:28 (sixteen years ago) link

which bangs essay are you talking about alfred?

― Tim Ellison, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:29 (sixteen years ago) link

("Beat of My Heart" does what, say, "Mr. Brightside" wants but doesn't have the guts to do -- economically pares the lyrics down to four to six manageable words plus a smattering of simple verses, delivers the hook with a sledgehammer -- which Killers are doing, too, but they're like the people at the "ring the bell" carnival game who act like they don't REALLY care to hide the fact that THEY CAN'T RING THE BELL. Hilary doesn't worry so much about the narrative, though there's some strange conflict happening...if she's listening to her heartbeat, learning to dance, up from her down, etc., why is the same beat also "tearing them apart"? What the hell does "away away" mean? Is she doomed?)

― dabug, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:30 (sixteen years ago) link

unless they've clearly got professional-level skills like Jordin Sparks

I like Jordin too, but she could use some Autotune.

― dabug, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:30 (sixteen years ago) link

Alfred: much cleverer and maybe better (direct) Stones rip is Fefe Dobson's (unreleased) "Get You Off." "Hey! Hey! You! You! Get off of my baaaaaack..." preceded by "I'll do anything to get you off! To get you OFF MY BACK!"

― dabug, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:32 (sixteen years ago) link

which bangs essay are you talking about alfred?

The one about his ambivalence towards Kim Carnes' "Bette Davis Eyes."

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:32 (sixteen years ago) link

Hilary doesn't worry so much about the narrative, though there's some strange conflict happening...if she's listening to her heartbeat, learning to dance, up from her down, etc., why is the same beat also "tearing them apart"? What the hell does "away away" mean? Is she doomed?

see, this is kind of what I've been talking about, these kinds of enthusiastic attempts to pin down the logic in a boring heart/start/apart rhyme scheme, painting the lack of narrative or any sense at all as an asset. I guess this is a good example of how the teenpop thread tends to exert a lot of evergy asking questions with very simple or at least not particularly interesting answers.

― Alex in Baltimore, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:37 (sixteen years ago) link

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