Metallica! Rick Rubin! Death Magnetic! September 16 (-ish)!

i'm cautiously optimistic.

um don't people love all those johnny cash albums he did?

my friend says the new Neil Diamond is pretty good.

um don't people love all those johnny cash albums he did?

hate 'em

99 problems was good

it suddenly seemed like they were such amateurs at songwriting, which is totally not the impression you get when you listen to "Ride the Lightning", "Master of Puppets," or "...And Justice for All."

That totally is the impression you get - it's all charisma and kick-ass riffs that hold these albums together, the songwriting is easily the worst thing about all of them. Their idea of an epic song is to take three riffs and cycle between them every 16 bars for 9 minutes with no dynamics or development. Compare "To Live Is To Die" with, say, "Norvegr" (a song that does the exact same thing).

the overly reverent "he's a serious ARTIST DON'T YOU SEE" schtick Rubin laid on him was pretty obnoxious. Don't get me wrong, I love Johnny Cash, I own a ton of his records, but he was a very varied performer and songwriter and the overly dour, super-serious treatment Rubin gave him and the songs Rubin selected for him to cover were pretty predictable and uninspired. There's no fun, no joy in those records - they were all about propping up the mythologized image of Cash as a tragic, tortured figure and there was way more to him than that.

but what do I know

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but what do I know

OTM

the songs Rubin selected for him to cover were pretty predictable and uninspired.

"Thirteen" (Glenn Danzig)
"Rusty Cage" (Chris Cornell) – 2:49
"Hurt" (Reznor) – 3:38
"Personal Jesus" (Gore) – 3:20

cash was a long time depeche mode fan though, he was doing a bob wills/western swing style version of "master and servant" in his live sets as early as 87

^^^all a bunch of dark, maudlin crap

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The second Cash/Rubin record, Unchained, is the only real keeper. There was a band behind him, and he actually rocked out a few times - the aforementioned cover of "Rusty Cage" in particular. For that reason, it's kind of ignored now, because all the super-serious critics who fawned all over the most mournful of the acoustic stuff didn't want to hear a Cash with any life in him.

Rick Rubin hasn't produced a decent album in what, 20 years?

I like his work with System of a Down.

unperson I disagree. His first is the only keeper. Totally stripped down - it's just him.

Cash singing 'Master of Puppets' - that would be a keeper.

>Totally stripped down - it's just him.

Yeah, but can you explain to me why that's a good thing? Cash wasn't a folkie; his first band was a trio, and he always needed accompaniment, rhythm, support.

^^^ding ding ding

yeah God Forbid an artist does something unexpected, amirite guys?

first two cash records are great. if they'd stopped there i'd have no beef.

(first two cash/rubin obv.)

its not that it was unexpected, it was totally predictable! (not to mention boring). What more predictable way to deal with an aging icon than to give him a bunch of shitty "contemporary" songs to cover and act like absolutely nothing is required of the producer than to just record the man and his guitar.

anyway this should all be on some other thread

you predicted that Johnny Cash would sing a Misfits song? that's amazing.

i think your projecting a lot of stuff that happened AFTER the cash records were such a big success shakey...it's predictable now, only cuz those records MADE it predictable

the particular songs don't matter Mr. Que - its like whenever they pair any aging icon with young talent eager to work with their idols (see also: Willie Nelson, that stupid Sinatra duets record, etc.) In principle there's nothing wrong with a little cross-generational miscegenation (Nitty Gritty Dirt Band's "Will the Circle Be Unbroken" is amazing, for example) but the lame marketing angle and the overly reverential treatment given the performer rarely result in any good music.

Shakey that's some bullshit, how can Rubin "act like absolutely nothing is required of the producer than to just record the man and his guitar" and then give him an "overly reverential treatment"? And isn't the reverence something an audience gives a performer, not a producer? And lastly: what's so reverential about letting all those voice crackings stay in the mix?

i guess i should add here that i just think records are okay--not great, but an interesting idea. way better than if Cash had just kept making the same record over and over. (and in a way you're right about the dourness-aren't there like five of these rubin records? prolly too many.) i dunno, i think it's good when artists stretch. i didn't really pay attention to the marketing angle. and i think cash should have been revered--who else deserves overly reverential treatment but him?

Euler I think its kinda quintessentially overly reverential to act like a performer is best served by being totally unadorned. (a la "he doesn't need anything else, he's JOHNNY CASH")

no one's saying Cash was "best served" by being unadorned. he did something different at the end of his life--why can't you just say "I think the songs suck," rather than trying to come up with some BS justifcation. you don't like the records, no big deal, right?

and i think cash should have been revered--who else deserves overly reverential treatment but him?

this is a good question... in some ways I think reverence is not a particularly healthy or interesting avenue for artists to travel. I mean there are people I revere, for sure, but it probably wouldn't be helpful to inject that reverence into those people's artistic processes.

and no its not a big deal that I don't like them, I was just thinking out loud about why I don't.

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xpost to Shakey

hmm ok I guess, but I think there are lots of ways a producer can give an artist a "reverential" treatment, like piling on strings for instance.

btw I don't get that reverential feel from the Rubin Cash records...but I already revered Cash so I wouldn't get this extra vibe from Rubin's production.

they could use those cash records to torture terrorists with. ugh. a good producer would have said: "hey, john, we'll try again when you're feeling a little better." it's almost like he was hoping he would get cash's actual death rattle on tape. so that he could sample it for a funky new chili peppers single!

roflz

i only felt that way about the last one. he sounds pretty spry on the first one.

back on topic though: dave mustaine wrote most of the riffs/parts to the songs that would end up on kill 'em all, right? and cliff burton helped write almost every song on ride the lightning and master of puppets, right? and ...and justice for all is really when they started to lose it, if you ask me. it was the first time that they were boring anyway. they should just do albums of covers. they are always good at those even without cliff.

^^^scott brings true wisdom. the two smartest, most interesting guys in the band haven't been around for a long time.

Scott is wrong though because AJFA is up there with the best riff-wise, and their songwriting was always pretty bad (see Master Of Puppets the song). Never bought the whole Cliff cult anyway.

Backwards day was last week, Siegbran.

I'm with Siegbran. AJFA and the Garage Days Re-Revisited EP are the two Metallica records I listen to most often, with Ride The Lightning, Master Of Puppets and Kill 'Em All following, in that order. (MOP is way overrated, the title track and "Battery" aside.

mostly justice just suffers from being too long. it WAS the first time i ever found metallica songs tedious. but certainly not the last time! and the drums drove me up a friggin' wall. there is stuff on justice that i like. and cliff did have a hand in SOME of the music on justice as well. just saying: before he died: cool band. after: not so much (garage days and half of justice aside). this might have happened anyway. cliff probably would have left/gotten the boot anyway as lars/james went for the gold. and 3 and a half good records + awesome cover stuff + cool odds & ends is better than most bands can come up with anyway.

d/c

they should just do albums of covers.

Metallica covers.

(MOP is way overrated, the title track and "Battery" aside.

Blasphemy.

Agree with J0hn - from those clips the vocals really stand out as bad. Turn them down in the mix, Rick! The guitars are still so blues/southern rock-ish, too. When did Kirk start doing that shit? I never felt any kind of Blues Hammer vibe in any of their pre-'Black Album' stuff.

I have to say, I don't mind the bluesy guitar. In fact, "I Disappear" is maybe my favorite thing they've done in the last decade outside of S&M. If St. Anger had been along those lines, I probably would've liked it a whole lot more than their "extreme" move. It certainly wouldn't have been thrash, but it would have been a more honest record of what they wanted to do at the time.

As for the Johnny Cash stuff, I only have The American IV, and while it's really good, it's kind of too depressing to listen to. The "Rusty Cage" cover was pretty rad, too.

And yeah, Master of Puppets still held up when I listened to it last night.

what the fuck, anti-cliff revisionism.

seriously

a propos of nothing i've been listening to a fair lot of old metallica on some channel at sirius at work for the past couple of days, maybe it's a new one, so random it's been a while ; I was like 13-14 yo when i discovered their back catalog, but i got into it yeah and have to say it was nice to hear that bit of sample on youtube that sounded raw and original, but maybe not urgent or hectic enough, though, like they could get:pretty crazy. and off i go to start a thread on hard shuffle or ya

Scott is wrong though because AJFA is up there with the best riff-wise, and their songwriting was always pretty bad (see Master Of Puppets the song). Never bought the whole Cliff cult anyway.

These two sentences are crazier than a shithouse rat

I'm a glutton for punishment and will buy Death Magnetic. If the coffin is under $100, I may even buy that too. I still love Metallica, and while this:

Defending Metallica in 2008 is like getting back together with the ex-girlfriend who cheated on you and lied to you the last 4-5 times you were together

is totally OTM, I gotta say, there's still chemistry between us, dude, so save the tears for morning.

As for Johnny Cash - only a fool would hate on him, duh, but I hated the way the media handled his death, which happened to be the same day we lost John Ritter. Cash had been milking his imminent demise for years, decades, even, while Ritter's death was wholly unexpected and somehow, sadder. Media: "Country icon Johnny Cash, beloved the world over, dead at 206. Tomorrow, more of our continuing coverage on the life and times of this American trailblazer. Oh, yeah, and Jack Tripper also croaked today for some reason. Now on to the weather."

Total Groucho Marx / Elvis scenario...

And if they wanted to release an instrumental disc of this, I wouldn't complain."

OTM John. I would buy instrumental versions of every Metallica album since Justice... if they were available.

Maybe if I keep low expectations of Metallica they might surprise me with something decent (and i actually like some of load). But I just cant see it.
Never really liked AJFA. The usual complaints about it..

http://mybroadband.co.za/photos/data/500/Thread_direction.jpg

Yeah, but for some reason I liked it when Megadeth did it, maybe because I didn't expect as much from Megadeth at the time. I mean, that was on the Bill & Ted soundtrack.

I mean: Slaughter! Steve Vai! Faith No More! Kiss! Megadeth! Winger! Primus!

Battle Stations is a jam though.

My point was when "Enter Sandman" came out, not only was it a little lame, but I was also like "wait, didn't I just hear someone do this over the summer? And wasn't it Metallica's EX-GUITARIST?"

My first truly raised lyrical eyebrow was the "... And Justice ..." nugget: "See your mother, put to death. See your mother ... die!"

Well, yeah. You just said it, James. Whether it works or not, the redundancy's always bugged me.

What's the grammatical term for reversing the order of words, the way they so often do in metal? Like, not "puppet master," but "master of puppets?"

There used to be a children's furniture store here called Cradles of Distinction.

maybe they should give Lars a go at singing. might be humorous

I maintain there are four cracking tracks on this album (That Was Just your Life, End of the Line, All Nightmare Long, Cyanide)

I like this record but I consider it more of a Rick Rubin success than a Metallica one.

lol

sorry if i'm coming off as just a hater, but i worry that any appraisal of this record in any way favorably comparing it to MOP or any of the other older metallica albums is so missing the point of what made those albums great, which was GREAT songs and GREAT guitar sound/creative playing. these things are missing 100% from this record. there is not a trace of that here. and those qualities, while they exist in the past, are what made metallica monstrous and to be feared and huge and awesome, and they are worth standing up for, IMO.

I got overexcited about "wow, a not terrible new metallica album" back then but let's be honest this roxy post was ridiculously OTM. plus I got a long tattoo once when this album was playing in the shop and fuckn' A you do not wanna have to sit through this record during a tattoo sitting.

eternal smdh @ critics racing to out-"surprisingly not that bad!!" each other about a weak album

I stand by my review.