Fear of death.

yup. but it's a phenomenon, it's natural, it exists.

No, those wavelengths exist. The color red does not. How can it if other organisms don't even experience it? Hell, color blind people don't even!

this is the hardcore dennett stance i guess. i don't get it.

well otherwise you'd have to say that humans way of experiencing external stimuli is the one correct one. spiders, bats, those dudes got it all wrong. right?

nope. we're just talking about existence, where does correctness come into it?

Sorry to veer away from the topic at hand... I thought this was interesting:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lF-uMIfL6s

He argues that we shouldn't be afraid of death. The argument is,

1. We should be afraid of something (we have reason to be afraid of something) just in case (a) the thing is bad, (b) there's a non-negligible chance of it happening, and (c) there's some uncertainty about whether it will happen or how bad it will be.

2. Death is certain, and although we can be uncertain about how bad or painful the way in which we die may be, there's no uncertainty about how bad being dead will be (it won't be like anything.)

3. So, we shouldn't fear being dead.

I guess 1.c is the most tenuous condition here. He makes a case that this is how we ordinarily understand fear. We consider it inappropriate if someone expresses fear (as opposed to anger or sadness) about something that she knows will happen and knows how bad it will be.

Maybe the problem is that "fear" suggests too weak an emotional response, something like worry. Maybe the sort of fear that we sometimes feel concerning death is more like horror. I don't have any intuitions about whether horror is inappropriate towards something that I know is inevitable.

where does correctness come into it?

In thinking that "red" is natural, that it exists. We get tricked into thinking it does. It's the only way we experience those light waves, so that must be how it objectively exists. I'm color blind for certain colors. I'm pretty sure I perceive those colors differently. Now, I still do perceive those wavelengths. I don't see a blackness where they should be. The phenomenon of red doesn't exist out there, just within the brain.

Does heat exist? Do all organisms experience it in the same way? Particles moving at slower or faster rates, energy being transferred, that exists. Heat is a subjective experience of that.

The phenomenon of red doesn't exist out there, just within the brain.

yeah, but it exists.

Does heat exist? Do all organisms experience it in the same way?

like the old "hey man what if we all experience colours differently?" - what if we do? there's no right or wrong involved. doesn't mean our experience don't exist.

It exists as a subjective experience, sure. Does the subjective experience of red break any known physical laws? Why would consciousness, also a subjective experience (albeit a sort of meta experience; the experience of experiencing) be any different?

I'm saying the physical laws we have or can envisage are insufficient to explain consciousness - or indeed the mere perception of red. does that mean it breaks physical laws? hmm i suppose on one reading it does, not really what i'm aiming for though.

doesn't mean our experience don't exist.

it means they don't exist outside of ourselves. just like photosynthesis doesn't exist outside of a plants' cells. what does a plant experience when it photosynthesizes? unknowable, but no reason to think its experience of it is "special" with respect to the laws of physics.

Does the subjective experience of red break any known physical laws?

Not sure this is a answerable question.

I really think you are apples vs. oranges with this whole consciousness & the laws of physics angle. It really doesn't make any sense.

Please explain how the experience of red follows physical laws and it'll make a little more sense to me.

Is there any reason to suspect it does? Does a thermometer responding to the temperature break physical laws? Why would a brain responding to certain wavelengths? Is it magical simply because we don't understand it fully, and may never?

Hey you brought it up

Merdeyeux you're saying that we're a complicated organism so our consciousness is more complex, though not functioning differently than the varying degrees found elsewhere in biological life?
I don't know if you saw my supercomputer scenario I presented that touches on the same point. If it is advanced enough to cross the line into arguably being conscious, is it not still a computer that that consciousness is tethered to only when it is operating?

― Evan, Friday, September 28, 2012 1:28 PM (2 hours ago)

yeah, i agree here. in terms of analysing them i think there's something ~notable~ about the distinction between self-organising biological consciousness and externally-induced electronic consciousness, but i'm not really sure what.

organisms respond to external stimuli, and organize it in order to function and reproduce in their environment. experience of red springs from that. '
what doesn't make sense to me is labeling a particular subjective experience (or set of experiences) as "consciousness" and then arbitrarily imbuing it with a magical properties.

So everything in the universe is obeys the laws of physics. Except for consciousness. Why? Because it's special. Why is it special? Because it is.

Because it special to us, in such a way that we can't accept it just ends.

If the only argument for it's specialness is "you never know...you can't prove otherwise", that is literally the weakest argument possible while still remaining with the realm of logic.

So how much does this consciousness weigh?

why do i keep doing it's for its jeez

how much does love weigh? how much does hope? how much does resentment? how much does the color red?

Your arguing for the specialness of the human experience is really no stronger an argument. Why is birth-to-death perception the only meaningful existence?

You know what Granny I'm OK with arbitrarily imbuing magical properties to consciousness as a what-if, because existential what-ifs are interesting, but I'm not OK with equating its possibility with the scientifically inferred outcome.

There's nothing special about human experience, that's the whole point. Consciousness is defined by "birth-to-death" perception/existence. If you believe in other forms of existence, you're going to have to find a new term for the perception of it.

Magical magical magical magical magical magical science science science science science

sigh

I'm sorry.

What would be sufficient proof that consciousness wasn't special, and obeys physical laws? If I show you fMRI or CAT scans of electrical activity in the brain, and how it correlates with certain thought patterns, ways of perceiving stimuli, levels of attention, etc., you can always just say "nah I'm not convinced, it *feels* like there's something more to it than that". Well, okay *shrugs*.

I can't abide with the notion that an argument that insists that a concept that occurs within the universe must abide by the laws of the universe is no stronger of an argument than one that contends that a concept is unique and breaks physical laws merely because it *feels* special and you can't measure it.

Where did anyone say it breaks physical laws?

Conservation of energy is a physical law.

conservation of energy, not conservation of form or functionality. entropy is also a physical law.

really think you are apples vs. oranges with this whole consciousness & the laws of physics angle. It really doesn't make any sense.

― Emperor Cos Dashit (Adam Bruneau), Friday, September 28, 2012 10:59 AM (34 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Please explain how the experience of red follows physical laws and it'll make a little more sense to me.

― Emperor Cos Dashit (Adam Bruneau), Friday, September 28, 2012 11:00 AM (33 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

sorry if i was wrong to assume you were insinuating that consciousness may break physical laws here.

That was in response to a post where you said the experience of red doesn't break physical laws.

The only thing magical is the thought that consciousness is a process that we have a coherent understanding of.

We don't know everything about it, but that doesn't mean we know nothing about it.

I didn't say the experience of red doesn't break physical laws. I asked what is the reason to think it doesn't?

No. What is the reason to think it DOES. What is the reason to think consciousness does? WHY is it special?

Unraveling what we think we know only brings us back to the start. It doesn't support claims of an afterlife, so we can't possibly equate that to anything but a story.

One could build a computer today that can detect red, that can detect touch, sound, all the human senses. A computer that can measure time. Yet somehow this computer is not conscious. What's the missing element there?

What exactly is the experience of red? Is it something physical, measurable? The computer is measuring it. Does that mean it is conscious? My video camera is measuring red, does that mean it is conscious?

My guess would be a more complex structure. But humans not knowing the missing element of a phenomenon is not sufficient reason to assume that phenomenon is any different from any other in the universe in basic characteristics.

no the computer is measuring the wavelengths. YOU are experiencing its measurements as red.

the trouble is that we can't get outside of consciousness to describe it 'objectively'. it's the opposite parable of the blind men trying to describe the elephant - we're stuck inside the elephant.

― Autumnal the faun (ledge),

otm

The eyeball trying to see itself

Evidence against our logic is not the same as evidence for the opposite. None has been presented, just the picking apart of our arguments.