are you an atheist?

So whether free will is "real" or not, I experience it as "real.")

clinging to your illusions eh? how scientific.

When I roll a six-sided die, I know for an absolute fact I'm going to end up with a number between 1-6, but I don't know in advance which one it will be, and neither does anyone else. Wish I had a better grounding in philosophy so I could discuss this more intelligently, but it seems to me that a lot of people are positioning as opposites things that are not opposites.

OTM. And doesn't modern science deal with some of this stuff re: quantum physics, etc?

quantum physics doesn't explain a whole lot about the level at which we experience things. there's this whole quantum gravity problem...

"a concept that is rooted in religion."

Is it? Again, I don't know enough about the history of philosophy to answer that, but it seems to me that it isn't.

Anyway, it all affects my day to day life in so insignificant a way, it seems like everyone else makes a bigger deal of it. It's the answer to a question, is all. "Do you believe in a deity?" "No." Doesn't really have anything to do with anything, nor does it reveal much of anything else about me.

Strict determinism is a kind of deus ex machina. It removes the necessity to account for anything at all. Whatever happens, however it happens, it exists because it had to be precisely so from the first instant of time. Therefore determinism makes an OK ersatz diety. It certainly kills any requirement for making any kind of choice, or even asking further questions.

We can affect things through our choices, though, even if our choices couldn't have been otherwise. And we can account for our actions by offering reasons, even if neither actions nor reasons could have been otherwise. Determinism doesn't seem to lead to fatalism.

quantum physics doesn't explain a whole lot about the level at which we experience things. there's this whole quantum gravity problem...

But if modern science is pointing away from strict determinism then how can atheism and free will be incompatible?

So whether free will is "real" or not, I experience it as "real.")

clinging to your illusions eh? how scientific.

― stop swearing and start windmilling (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, September 24, 2012 6:15 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

And? Let's say I concede, "There's no such thing as free will, the universe is deterministic," where does that get us? I still can't get from there to knowing in advance what my or anyone else's outcomes are going to be. So what difference does it make if I "believe" in free will or not? Even if I don't, that doesn't get me to, say, shrugging off mass murder because it was going to happen no matter what.

"a concept that is rooted in religion."

Is it? Again, I don't know enough about the history of philosophy to answer that, but it seems to me that it isn't.

Here i sort of feel like we've gotten to that fragmented spot on the line of history where religion and philosophy and science and government are all split into (somewhat) neatly defined things whereas the further we go into the past they were joined together.

I think maybe my real underlying metaphysic is "glibness."

So what difference does it make if I "believe" in free will or not?

it totally doesn't matter! which is one of the reasons I found that poll so weird, "free will" had a lot of of vociferous defenders.

Is it? Again, I don't know enough about the history of philosophy to answer that, but it seems to me that it isn't.

St. Augustine yo

We can affect things through our choices, though, even if our choices couldn't have been otherwise.

this is just narcissism, an ant could say the same thing.

Maybe Karma should be invoked here? You have the free will to be a shit, but if you are a shit, you put shit into the universe, and then it comes back and is shitty back to you, impersonally, just as a matter of mechanical principle. If you shit where you eat, you will be eating where you shit. You have free will, but nobody wants the universe to be shitty to them, so you will still try and approach things a certain way, just because of how things work out.

But if modern science is pointing away from strict determinism then how can atheism and free will be incompatible?

modern science is not pointing away from strict determinism afaict. if anything they are desperately trying to preserve deterministic models to explain things - why do you think they were so excited about the Higgs boson?

xp

the problem with quantum physics is that it doesn't tell us anything useful about the universe above the quantum level - in fact, it makes predictions that directly violate observable phenomenon in the physical universe: gravity, light, the distribution of matter, etc. This problem has confounded physics for almost a century.

in that respect atheism as free willed and hyper-individualistic is sorta the end game of a certain brand of christianity.

ryan posts make every thread better imho

if anything they are desperately trying to preserve deterministic models to explain things

You seem to be conceding that quantum mechanics has cast some doubt on determinism.

the problem with quantum physics is that it doesn't tell us anything useful about the universe above the quantum level

Why is that a problem as it relates to the question of free will? Where does this thing called free will exist? Isn't it conceivable that it functions on a quantum level?

ha, thanks mordy! (i always enjoy your posts too)

When I was 13 there was nothing I enjoyed more than debating religion on some BBS, but these days I barely even think about it anymore. Anyway, I'm much more likely to encounter cosmic we're all connected b.s. than the old gods.

i find what the bleep do we know shit far more pernicious than either atheism or trad religion. probably means i should figure out why it's actually excellent but that stuff is just so toxic to me.

There's an epidemic of that stuff in Berkeley. It drives me insane.

i would prefer we (Americans) all go back to Calvinism, honestly, but that's my hang up. go hard or go to hell.

i'm pretty sure we're going to use advances in quantum physics to make faster iphones, fewer dropped calls. +1 for science!

is the influence + reach of calvinism in broader normative american culture + society also predetermined?

Is it? Again, I don't know enough about the history of philosophy to answer that, but it seems to me that it isn't.

St. Augustine yo

Greeks were debating free will B.C. no?

This is more a time-travel hypothetical but if:
(1) free will does not exist
(2) you are predetermined to choose a red ball

What happens if, knowing (2), you choose a black ball instead? Does the universe explode?

Having already performed one impossibility, all the subsequent ones just come along for the ride.

which part is the impossible part?

Another immoderate consumer of science fantasy hook slides into first base.

I'm pretty sure this hasn't been explored in fiction because it would make for very short fiction.

maybe a futurama joke?

at least a pondering fry meme image

Picking apart a hole in the philosophy of an atheist is not equal to the tiny probability that the unknowns of the universe subscribe to very specific, very conveniently imaginable workings for some reason revolving around the human, when we've barely scratched the surface of how enormous that universe is.

I didn't get to read all this, but I skimmed and noticed you arguing about free will. What does it amount to? How can it account for the giant discrepancies in what is more likely than the other as being the truth?

Hopefully you don't read this as combative, I'm just trying to get to the core of why I'm an atheist here. Oh and sorry to derail, too.

I don't think anyone was bringing up free will to argue about whether atheism is true or not. I was mostly curious about their compatibility. Also morality.

Oh OK. Carry on! I'm just venting my stance and was too lazy to read all of the new answers

Has anyone used godelian arguments re: free will to prove the non-existence of an omniscient god?

I just get bothered when I see atheists and theists arguing over why one little aspect of religious text or theory is true or not (unless it springs from a specific context like gay marriage) and the overarching point, to me, is not addressed.

I posted this on another thread but I thought this Neil Tyson vid was OTM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CzSMC5rWvos

Oh I totally agree about being tied to a "movement," and I would rather not call myself an atheist but it's confusing to say I'm not an atheist cause I hate that baggage but I am, basically.

As much as I want to agree about how silly it is to have a word for not being something, religion has been dominating enough to make a word for not believing necessary, and you know what, I'll just call myself a non-believer. Hate the atheist label a lot.

I would rather not call myself an atheist but it's confusing to say I'm not an atheist cause I hate that baggage but I am, basically.

I feel exactly the same. And I also don't really understand getting all philosophical about it - can't I just be comfortable knowing that nothing I've experienced has proven the existence of anything supernatural to me?

As for the morality end of it, I sincerely try my hardest to live by the golden rule, but without any fear of retribution or damnation.

I also think the idea of fading into atoms and nothingness once again is extremely satisfying, and makes me feel awe and wonder at the theoretical infinity of the universe, the vast majority of which we know nothing about. And it could contain or have been started by a diety of some sort, but it's unknowable so why try to define it in a very specific manner?

but it's unknowable so why try to define it in a very specific manner?

Because if the answers it provides are to comfort, they should also be comforting with familiarities that are easy to digest. Imagining god in a human form and an afterlife that preserves our consciousness, memory, and personality is an attractive concept to a mind that has to try to process nothingness as an alternative to that afterlife and incomprehensible amounts of time to be the main ingredient of why such complex things exist.

To the idea which has popped up a couple of times that agnosticism is the most intellectually honest position, I'll only buy this if you're agnostic about every single god ever believed in throughout the entire history of humanity. iirc Shakey Mo took this line once, and I guess I'd have to have a grudging respect for such thoroughgoing agnosticism.

I think "it's unknowable" is a concept really at the root of spirituality. God or the soul or whatever are ultimately unknowable to us, and religious texts and symbols have to be taken with this in mind. They aren't strict descriptions of this supernatural phenomenon, because such description is impossible. Each symbol does reveal a fragment of the truth, but due to the abstract nature of god, words will always literally fail. If god was comprehensible and describable in human terms, then it would be science.

On the other hand, there are many phenomenon found through science that are more and more difficult for our minds to comprehend as well. And unless you are a brilliant mathematician or astrophysicist, you are probably aware of such concepts as described through their own comforting familiarities.

A 'personal connection with Jesus' or a 'personal god' does not mean that god is a person with two arms, two legs, and a head, etc. It means that god is a personal experience. Maybe one could try describing it to others but it is ultimately a transcendent experience that cannot be transmitted wholly via language.

that would dispense with a lot of the purpose of religions as institutions tho

Adam, that interpretation is your personal one and describes god and spirituality as a part of and an origin of your psyche, is that what you mean?

Yes that's my personal interpretation but I believe an impersonal or objective interpretation is impossible.

Yeah I just didn't know if you were describing a belief you are a part of or one you've discovered on your own.

Well I've never gone to a church other than for weddings/funerals, and my parents taught me more about pop science than anything else growing up. But i've always been interested in myths and religions mainly from a purely "these are cool stories" point of view, but lately I've been on a big Alan Watts kick, looking at Christianity through a Zen Buddhist lens. I think there's plenty of value in organized religion but that most of the original messages have been distorted and/or politicized to a degree where they don't make sense on most levels.

On that last point I fear the stretch between the introduction of the original messages and the point at which they were used for political or economical gain may be tiny to non existent depending on the religion in question.

Greeks were debating free will B.C. no?

Greeks did not have a word for free will