Joy Division: Classic Or Dud?

Mike - sadly, Stevo is correct - it's not possible to ignore the fact that JD used fascist imagery. Look at the cover of the Ideal for Living EP, the content of No Love Lost, Leaders of Men, They Walked in Line...

Maybe you can USE fascist imagery without BEING a fascist. I'd say they were pretty thoughtless, young and stupid, that's all.

This thread pop up on Usenet every now and then, and to give you the answer first: NO!!! This thread, however, did not start on Usenet or Internet. It started in the british music press more than 15 years ago, and since Joy Division gave very few interviews the rumours were allowed to grow in the press. Here's a few points to clear up things: > The version of "At a later date" that appear on the "Short Circuit" compilation opens with Bernard shouting "You all forgot Rudolf Hess!". At that time Rudolf Hess, 83 years old, had been imprisoned at the Spandau prison in East Berlin for more than 30 years. You don't have to be a nazi to feel sympathy for a sick old man that was heavily guarded by some 100 KGB soldiers. > According to Fernando Lopez-de-Victoria: Bernard (and perhaps Ian in some obscure interview) has noted that they like the regalia and art (?) of the Nazi's, but in no way liked their philosophy. This can be seen in some of their artwork, for example: > Bernard made the design for "An Ideal For Living", it included a drawing of a Hitler-jugend-look-alike drummer boy. But on the same fold-out sleeve there's a famous picture from the Warsaw ghetto during 2WW: A young Jewish boy standing with his hands up in the air being guarded by a nazi storm-trooper. Now, is that good nazi propaganda ? > The name Joy Division was associated with nazism, journalists didn't like it (the same thing happened with New Order). As you can read somewhere else in this FAQ "Joy Division" really has a connection to nazism: It was chosen from a book that describes the horrors in a nazi camp during 2WW, not the prosperous future... "Through the wire-screen the eyes, of those standing outside, looked in at her, as into the cage of some rare creature in a zoo. In the hand of one of the assistants she saw the same instrument which they had, that morning, inserted deep into her body. She shuddered instinctively. No life at all in the House of Dolls. No love lost."

This verse from Cetinsky's "The House Of Dolls" was included on the version of "No love lost" from recording session (2).

The weird thing is that many other punk-bands used much more direct nazi symbolism in their relation with the press, and still got away with it!! Though the press never got to interview Joy Division about this topic they could have checked Joy Division's lyrics. If they had they wouldn't have found a shred of nazi propaganda, on the contrary! Take for example "They walked in line": "All dressed in uniforms so fine, they drank and killed to pass the time. Wearing the shame of all their crimes, with measured steps, they walked in line

They carried pictures of their wives and number tags to prove their lives, and made it through the whole machine with dirty hearts and hands washed clean."

And, to really tear down the nazi rumour: Joy Division have participated in a Rock Against Racism benefit concert (at Kelly's in Manchester 12 October 1978) and an Amnesty International benefit concert (at Eric's in Liverpool 3 May 1979). To summarize: I can't find any evidence that JD has shown any sympathy with fascism/nazism, only the contrary. ++++++

so as not to plagarise.

Sure you can.

i always found this argument dubious. given the number of oppressed political prisoners in the world, why feel special sympathy for a nazi? ic might have made the statement to mean "you all forgot what rudolf hess did as a nazi" or something though.

The funny thing about the liner notes is that the kids next door have formed a ska punk band. They sound awful, but I think they're using a riff from a JD song in one of their songs.

Damning with faint praise here, I think.

I am attached to the idea of Unknown Pleasures and Closer being albums, so the thought of having their tracks simply included on a set like Hear & Soul doesn't quite do it for me.

Yup. I haven't been in a JD mood for a while, but when I am I just listen to the box set. I really like the track listing actually (singles, peel sessions and whatnot before and after Unknown Pleasures and Closer on Discs 1 & 2 respectively).

I'm normally a big one for lyrics but I think Ian Curtis' were pretty dire - all that Ballard-rip-off stuff and the existential pomp of it all. Salvaged a bit by his voice, which I do like a lot. I don't even think "Atmosphere" has good lyrics. "Love Will Tear Us Apart" has BRILLIANT lyrics which from an artistic p.o.v. is the saddest thing about his death - that it seems like a breakthrough in terms of writing humane but unflinching stuff about relationships. But lyrically, generally, dud.

But the music! Bloody hell - the drive and claustrophobia and dynamics and Martin Hannett's production....it's extraordinary. A lot of it is Hannett and I think it's a shame that AFAIK I'm the first person to mention him in this thread. But that band could motor - "Dead Souls", for example, where the lyrics are pretty much irrelevant next to the huge concrete smack of the music. No, for the music, classic.

exactly.

Heh. Well I'm already getting used to it, listening to it again.
I'm d/ling the whole box set right now. I only ever had Substance growing up.
That was a little jarring the first time I heard it - a little alarm went off.
It totally sounds like he just fucked up a couple times and never got around to overdubbing it.
But then the song's called "Disorder" so whatever.

ihttp://users.net1plus.com/steff/ian3.jpg

Just downloaded the video of JD playing "Transmission" on a television show in September 1979. Extremely disturbing to watch -- Curtis looks terribly ill in it, and it is edited very obviously so that one sees as little of him as possible.

"Transmission" is the greatest song of all time.

I'm not sure if I could rock an Ian Curtis bookbag, but I at least want the option.

That's a really flattering picture of Ian Curtis. Cool.

And Joy Division = classic classic classic.

I mean, "Transmission" and "Love Will Tear Us Apart" are absolutely essential & classic tunes, but as a whole, I just don't get it. I also agree with Tom's assessment that lyrically they're pretty dire, but would also add that I think Hannet's production on the drums was not up to snuff; they sound more often than not like full jugs of water. I'm basing all of this on Substance, BTW.

ARAGHADFADFGA HDFASDFASD.

(That was my inarticulate expression of jealousy. Please note my comments about "Transmission" at the start of the thread.)

The great thing about Tom's argument is that it's a FINE argument for why lyrics need not be paramount. ;-)

GET UNKNOWN PLEASURES AND CLOSER NOW THEN DAMMIT!!!

Likewise the "Dance, dance, dance, dance, dance to the radio" in Transmission - a lyric so startlingly out of place here, seemingly flown in from a top 10 pop hit. Again the delivery is brutal.

Also "Where have they been? " (Decades)

Tom's point about LWTUA is well-made. Also Ceremony ("All she asks the strength to hold me/then again the same old story"). Actually these are brilliant lines, simply brilliant. Also the first line of the song is fantastic : "This is why events unnerve me".

-- Ned Raggett (ne...), September 16th, 2004.

OTM.

nothing Bernard Sumner has ever written comes close to the lyrics of "Ceremony"

Though, almost certainly, quite a lot of Ceremony is Sumner's lyrics, or at least his adaptation of what he could make out from the recordings that existed.

"Then again, who is close to Morris?"

there is/was a bay area based JD cover band called Dead Souls and their last drummer killed it. she's now the drummer in my band, I'm happy to say.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYMxmtrfbmU

I saw a fantastic jd cover band in sf on NYE in like 2003, wonder if it was them…

Someone has turned my dream of seeing The Fonz dance to “Disorder” by Joy Division into a reality.

(IG Credit: soyouthinkyoucangoth) pic.twitter.com/II27pinEbo

— Disastro (@DeadAstroman) July 1, 2022

i. it has terrific rhythmic poise, and.
ii. is pitch-perfect in its invocation of mockable faux innocence, as a mask for actual genuinely (silly but knowingly silly) belief
i like mark s, but like a lot of his posts his reading is--how you say in UK?--too clever by half.

― amateur!!st, Thursday, 16 September 2004 18:38 (seventeen years ago) bookmarkflaglink

i too like mark s and his reading is exactly the right amount of clever (by half)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7IpgFIz9ng

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxY3FtlLc-M

That Fonz video is amazing

such passion Fonzzie

this was posted in the 77 albs, very well done!

https://www.reverbnation.com/djrudec/song/19246485-joy-division-vs-doors-break-on

depressing crap

https://pouria.dev/unknown-pleasures

neat but...should've picked a song on the album!