White trick-or-treaters in blackface: C/D?

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We don't have a history of minstrelsy because before the nineties, we had a black population practically the size of zero. Which meant that, up until the eighties, it was possible to sell liquorice with this symbol:

http://kotisivu.dnainternet.net/houtsone/lakupekka.jpg

(x-post)

Tuomas (Tuomas), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 14:58 (eighteen years ago) link

tuomas is there commonly accepted shit in america that seems racist to you based on standards of your country? like brits who are baffled by apu on the simpsons

xpost ahahhahahahahahha

_, Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:00 (eighteen years ago) link

Also, I don't think you can separate motivation from the offense. Context is a helluva big thing when it comes to racism.

(x-post)

Tuomas (Tuomas), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:01 (eighteen years ago) link

Can I reiterate for all of the white people on this thread that there is a gigantic non-negligible semantic difference between dressing up as a famous person who happens to be of a different color than you and dressing up as an explicitly offensive character, like a lawn jockey? Unless, of course, you think that Ben Wallace is the modern equivalent of a lawn jockey, which says a lot more about your perceptions of race than it does about the person who dressed up like him.

Dan (Surrounded By White Madness) Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:01 (eighteen years ago) link

(And yes, I know that many black people would disagree with me.)

Dan (The Point Remains) Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:01 (eighteen years ago) link

Dan, that what was what I was trying to say in my first post.

Tuomas (Tuomas), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:02 (eighteen years ago) link

dan i think the point is that blackface is de facto offensive

_, Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:02 (eighteen years ago) link

which i agree is debateable but i think most americans would agree

_, Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:03 (eighteen years ago) link

Dan, how do you feel about someone dressing up as Don King?

xp

dan doesn't seem to agree with you!

jed_ (jed), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:03 (eighteen years ago) link

i mean you can talk about sincere admiration all you like but in the end you come off like those dicks who want to "reclaim" the swastika- just let it go, dudes

_, Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:04 (eighteen years ago) link

OH NO DAN DOESNT AGREE WITH ME

_, Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:05 (eighteen years ago) link

but youre testin me with "dated", like miniature black servants holding lanterns in your front yard are soooo last week huh??

No, I meant literally dated....as, to the best of my knowledge, they don't make them (the actual lawn ornaments) anymore.....though drive around Long Island and you'll still spot a few, not to mention in midtown Manhattan.....

http://orient-express.lbwa.verio.net/onyc/images/220images/onyc_220_entrance.jpg

Alex in NYC (vassifer), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:05 (eighteen years ago) link

Actually, I'm wrong....evidently they do still make'em. Apologies.

Alex in NYC (vassifer), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:06 (eighteen years ago) link

Obviously a kid wanting to look as much like Ben Wallace as possible is different from a yard with a burning cross (or a lawn jockey), but it's all part of the same issue.

Andy_K (Andy_K), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:07 (eighteen years ago) link

tuomas is there commonly accepted shit in america that seems racist to you based on standards of your country?

No, probably not. Since most of our ethnic minorities have been here for thirty years or less, I assume American culture is far more sensitive to racial imagery as related to, say, Asian or African people. We do have seem older ethnic groups such as the Sami and the Roma people, but they obviously don't show up at all in American culture.

Tuomas (Tuomas), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:08 (eighteen years ago) link

Maybe the kid just liked Ben Wallace.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:09 (eighteen years ago) link

i mentally associate un-pc blackface halloween costums with white guys who whine about how they cant say the n-word or how theres no national association for the advancement of WHITE people

_, Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:10 (eighteen years ago) link

OH NO DAN DOESNT AGREE WITH ME
-- _ (...), November 1st, 2005. (later)

i don't know if he does but, if so, it does call into question your use of the phrase "De Facto".

jed_ (jed), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:10 (eighteen years ago) link

ned dont bring your dopey 'who me??' approach to race relations on this thread

_, Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:11 (eighteen years ago) link

Maybe the kid will see Amos and Andy and think, "Hey, neat."

Andy_K (Andy_K), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:11 (eighteen years ago) link

dan i think the point is that blackface is de facto offensive

Blackface is de facto offensive. My issue is this: should a child dressed up as Ben Wallace for Halloween be considered blackface? Exactly what does that say about how you view people like Ben Wallace that that was your first reaction to seeing the child? In my mind, this is the racist liberal issue rearing its ugly head again.

Dan (Excruciating Back Pain) Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:11 (eighteen years ago) link

your reading comprehension is de facto impaired-

dan i think the point is that blackface is de facto offensive
-- _ (...), November 1st, 2005.

which i agree is debateable but i think most americans would agree
-- _ (...), November 1st, 2005.

_, Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:12 (eighteen years ago) link

Obviously a kid wanting to look as much like Ben Wallace as possible is different from a yard with a burning cross (or a lawn jockey), but it's all part of the same issue.

Er, I'd argue that in the kid's mind it isn't.

Tuomas (Tuomas), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:12 (eighteen years ago) link

(xxx-post)

Tuomas (Tuomas), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:12 (eighteen years ago) link

dan do you honestly think its racist to see a white person in blackface makeup and associate it with previous white people in blackface makeup? i mean i (mostly) dont have the same problem with white kids in pre-made rubber halloween masks of black characters (couple years ago i remember larry fishburne from the matrix with big with kids black AND white)

_, Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:13 (eighteen years ago) link

with big = was big

_, Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:14 (eighteen years ago) link

yes we all live in a context free paradise where you can act as racially offensive as you want as long as you dont realize it!! its certainly not any white persons duty to learn about such things and understand why theyre offensive!!!

_, Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:15 (eighteen years ago) link

Exactly which portion of "should a child dressed up as Ben Wallace for Halloween be considered blackface" was ambiguous, Ethan?

Yes, I think that that entire line of thought is incredibly dehumanising to black people because the point SHOULD be that we are all people and therefore should get treated the same. There shouldn't be anything special or taboo about a child wanting to dress up as a highly visible and incredibly popular basketball player. Basically, by blanket-calling every single instance where someone wears makeup darker than their skin tone "blackface", you are helping to peretuate the racial divide in this country.

Finally, don't fucking tell me what I should find offensive, white boy.

Dan (Don't Try That Shit With Me) Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:18 (eighteen years ago) link

tuomas, why does the fact finland had no black population pre-whenever somehow make racist things less racist?

Theorry Henry (Enrique), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:19 (eighteen years ago) link

so in america black guys aren't allowed to have people dressed up as them in halloween? seems pretty racist to me.

ken c (ken c), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:19 (eighteen years ago) link

I should've come up with a term for innocent, inoffensive, well-meaning makeup for children that makes them look as if their racial background is different.

Andy_K (Andy_K), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:20 (eighteen years ago) link

So if they wanted to dress up like Ben Wallace because they like him, but they didn't paint their faces, it would be OK...? But then it would be a really lame costume. So you're saying white kids can only dress up like white people for Halloween.

And would it be offensive for a girl to dress up like a man?

face-ah.

xposts. Dan, Ken, OTM

when something smacks of something (dave225.3), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:20 (eighteen years ago) link

Ethan, I know you like to think of yourself as ILE's Champion Of The Black Man but I'm not going to play Bigger Thomas for you.

Dan (Excruciating Back Pain) Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:21 (eighteen years ago) link

dan are you cool with white kids using the n-word? is that ok cuz we're all people and should be treated the same?

_, Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:22 (eighteen years ago) link

Trife, is why I said you can't separate motivation from the offense. Ignorance of historical connotations is of course rather stupid, but still, no image is racist de facto, only with the context. A white kid dressed up as a black sportsman is offensive to those who associate it with minstrelsy, but what we're discussing is - is that everybody?

(xxxx-post)

Tuomas (Tuomas), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:22 (eighteen years ago) link

dan for fucks sake im not saying what you should or should not be offended by, but youre crazy if you dont think a huge majority of americans would find this inexcusable

_, Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:23 (eighteen years ago) link

>I observed (w/ some mild hostility) another white kid wearing a Negro League baseball hat!<

You know, I've been at ballparks where these are given away to all kinds of people...

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:26 (eighteen years ago) link

no image is racist de facto, only with the context

http://kotisivu.dnainternet.net/houtsone/lakupekka.jpg

in which actual context is this not offensive?

Theorry Henry (Enrique), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:26 (eighteen years ago) link

i wore a wig as my halloween costume (not my natural hair) so i could look like an evil lady from "the ring" :((


and she was japanese, rather than chinese :((((


also i was crawling out of a "sony" brand TV which is a japanese TV manufacturer when i really should have done with say "Konka" brand, just so that i don't appear to have stereotyped Japan with the Sony brand when actualy it just happened to be a famous TV brand used to signify my cardboard box to be a TV. :((((((((((((((

i was a racist dick :(

ken c (ken c), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:28 (eighteen years ago) link

My cousin dressed up as Michael Jackson once. He wore "blackface" (this was back in like '86, keep in mind). No one seemed to find it offensive in, well, New York City. Probably because 8 year olds trying to be their idols isnt' really that offensive??? How is dressing up as a rape victim on Halloween even remotely comparable to a kid dressing like his favorite athlete? I mean my main problem with this is like, Ben Wallace, fucks sake kid come on now.

Also wtf kind of person gives someone else shit for wearing a Negro Leagues hat?

Allyzay knows a little German (allyzay), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:28 (eighteen years ago) link

No offense, ethan, I see your side of the argument but I think that if a "huge majority" of Americans would find a kid dressed up as their favorite athlete on Halloween "inexcusable" then A) there'd be pretty much no argument on this thread B) it wouldn't have happened.

Allyzay knows a little German (allyzay), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:29 (eighteen years ago) link

and my white friends wear tshirts with chinese writings on them :((


and i sometimes wear tshirts with english writings on them :((((

ken c (ken c), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:31 (eighteen years ago) link

brits who are baffled by apu on the simpsons

I don't know that we are. Why do you think this ethan?

Markelby (Mark C), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:32 (eighteen years ago) link

i'm baffled by apu on 'the simpsons' because he is a racist caricature out of 70s british sitcoms.

Theorry Henry (Enrique), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:34 (eighteen years ago) link

come on mark, a majority of us find apu inexcusable

ken c (ken c), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:34 (eighteen years ago) link

are you two being sarcastic?

Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:34 (eighteen years ago) link

Oh Mark there was a thread in which a group of Brits who I actually cannot recall right now went nuts over how "racist" Apu obviously is, I do remember that thread, he's right. Note that he's saying "Brits who..." which does not imply "All british people," so don't get too bothered.

Allyzay knows a little German (allyzay), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:35 (eighteen years ago) link

i'm more baffled by the lack of white people living in Springfield

ken c (ken c), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:35 (eighteen years ago) link

It'd be a lot easier to have sympathy for Andy and Ethan's argument if one of them wasn't prancing around with the white man's guilt ONLY TEH BLACKS CAN LIKE TEH NEGRO LEAGUE HAT bullshit and the other one wasn't comparing Ben Wallace to Hitler.

Allyzay knows a little German (allyzay), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:39 (eighteen years ago) link

flip a coin, stevem.

Theorry Henry (Enrique), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:40 (eighteen years ago) link

lol at khakis

Chocolate-covered gummy bears? Not ruling those lil' guys out. (ulysses), Sunday, 5 November 2017 19:28 (six years ago) link

one year passes...

American politicians go blackface.

But not Canadians: https://time.com/5680759/justin-trudeau-brownface-photo/

pplains, Thursday, 19 September 2019 02:21 (four years ago) link

What the fuck is wrong with all these people?

Josh in Chicago, Thursday, 19 September 2019 02:45 (four years ago) link

Milkshake Trudeau is Racist.

a bevy of supermodels, musicians and Lena Dunham (C. Grisso/McCain), Thursday, 19 September 2019 03:51 (four years ago) link

I can’t believe he did it so many times! And he was 29!! Shameful.

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Thursday, 19 September 2019 14:01 (four years ago) link

nine months pass...

NBC was a big fan of blackface gags

Donald Trump Also Sucks, Of Course (milo z), Tuesday, 30 June 2020 23:27 (three years ago) link

They were also the network that played The Apprentice. Something not right been up with them for awhile.

pplains, Wednesday, 1 July 2020 00:34 (three years ago) link

Countdown to the discovery of long-missing The Apprentice: Blackface Challenge tapes...

"...And the Gods Socially Distanced" (C. Grisso/McCain), Wednesday, 1 July 2020 02:10 (three years ago) link

Whole network is rotten from the Today show hosts to the late night wars. Who woulda thunk a broadcasting company owned by G.E. would be so awful.

Oh, they're owned by Comcast now. yes, yes, such an improvement.

Anyway. Halloween this year is going to be horrible. I am looking forward to the McCloskey costumes though.

pplains, Wednesday, 1 July 2020 02:23 (three years ago) link

two years pass...

Er, I've just seen the Bananarama video for "I Want You Back" (with the woman who replaced Siobhan Fahey who no-one remembers)...

Maggot Bairn (Tom D.), Sunday, 16 April 2023 09:32 (one year ago) link

Beginning of Culture Club's Do You Really Want To Hurt Me video is another one.

the world is your octopus (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Sunday, 16 April 2023 09:40 (one year ago) link

with the woman who replaced Siobhan Fahey who no-one remembers

some of us will always remember the Shillelagh Sisters

he thinks it's chinese money (soref), Sunday, 16 April 2023 09:58 (one year ago) link


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