New York City is for sellouts

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gabbneb (gabbneb), Friday, 8 August 2003 17:49 (twenty years ago) link

felicity it is superb!! She talks about the big stuff of course—the Italian place where Caruso dined, Lindy's, Sardi's, etc and other things that were apparently big enough to be instantly recognizeable to her readers but have lost any meaning for anyone (names of society people, especially), but she also talks about little things, like her favorite lavendar salesman (whose cry of "sweeeet lavendar for saaale!!" was heard for blocks around his stall on 2nd ave), a place to buy wigs, a woolworth's lunch counter presided over by a maitre'd in tails and white gloves where you could get duck a l'orange, and tons of places where the actors hung out, especially a Mexican place (NOT owned by Mexicans: Ned it is a long tradition!!) with "the only enchiladas in New York"

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Friday, 8 August 2003 17:50 (twenty years ago) link

j0hn wins

again

(xpost)

donut bitch (donut), Friday, 8 August 2003 17:51 (twenty years ago) link

This seems like such an America centred argument. (I don't mean this negatively in any way) I'm just wondering whether there's any difference between someone in, say, Canada deciding to move to NYC and someone from, say, Burlington, VT. If NYC's mystique is based on some mythologized American ideal of the city, are folks from other places in the world equally affected? (Martin's comment about London got me thinking)

Also, in terms of multiculturalism, Toronto's got everyone beat. 56 different ethnic groups speaking 80 different languages--the most diverse city in the world. (I used to work for Ontario tourism)

cybele (cybele), Friday, 8 August 2003 18:16 (twenty years ago) link

I find it hard to believe that Toronto is more diverse than Sioux City!

(NOTE: The preceeding might be a lie.)

Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Friday, 8 August 2003 18:18 (twenty years ago) link

Judging people's life choices: dud
Experiencing normal human emotions when your friends move away: classic

felicity (felicity), Friday, 8 August 2003 18:37 (twenty years ago) link

Felicity, this isn't about my friends, really. I'm not judging their life choices. I acknowledged in my opening thread that a lot of what I think and feel about their reasons for moving is totally irrational and cynical. Confusion and even a little bit of anger are normal human emotions when your friends are moving away from you. Of course I am sad that they are leaving as well as excited for them, but that didn't really seem relevant to the question I was trying to ask with the thread. And I don't think judging people's life choices is a dud, it's pretty much unavoidable. But I'm keeping my feelings to myself and expressing only "normal human emotions" to them, so don't worry about my friends.

NA (Nick A.), Friday, 8 August 2003 18:43 (twenty years ago) link

Selling out is classic anyway though.

Ally (mlescaut), Friday, 8 August 2003 18:45 (twenty years ago) link

Ha ha, I just realized that I totally contradicted myself. Awesome. I meant the stuff at the end about judging life choices, not the part at the beginning when I say I'm not judging them.

NA (Nick A.), Friday, 8 August 2003 18:48 (twenty years ago) link

Toronto's got everyone beat

Taking Sides: West Nile v. SARS

TMFTML (TMFTML), Friday, 8 August 2003 18:49 (twenty years ago) link

But I'm keeping my feelings to myself and expressing only "normal human emotions" to them, so don't worry about my friends.

I reserve the right to spend a lot of time worrying about NA's friends

J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Friday, 8 August 2003 18:57 (twenty years ago) link

I want to worry about his friends, go find your own.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 8 August 2003 18:59 (twenty years ago) link

My friends may or may not be a literary device.

NA (Nick A.), Friday, 8 August 2003 19:04 (twenty years ago) link

This is one of those "my...friend, yeah" situations, isn't it?

Ally (mlescaut), Friday, 8 August 2003 19:05 (twenty years ago) link

His friend Harvey.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 8 August 2003 19:06 (twenty years ago) link

Nick doesn't even HAVE friends.

Yanc3y (ystrickler), Friday, 8 August 2003 19:47 (twenty years ago) link

BURN!!!!

Ally (mlescaut), Friday, 8 August 2003 19:48 (twenty years ago) link

Not after this thread, I don't.

NA (Nick A.), Friday, 8 August 2003 19:48 (twenty years ago) link

Wait, how does saying something that's already been implied at least 3 times, but in more direct terms, constitute a BURN!!!? I challenge your BURN!!!

NA (Nick A.), Friday, 8 August 2003 19:50 (twenty years ago) link

Well, for Yanc3y, it's pretty clever.

Ally (mlescaut), Friday, 8 August 2003 19:51 (twenty years ago) link

BURN!

nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Friday, 8 August 2003 19:52 (twenty years ago) link

Now, THAT's a BURN!!! I will even go so far as to say BOO-YAH!

NA (Nick A.), Friday, 8 August 2003 19:52 (twenty years ago) link

Ally's like that Paula Abdul song

nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Friday, 8 August 2003 19:53 (twenty years ago) link

The one with Keanu Reeves?

Ally (mlescaut), Friday, 8 August 2003 19:53 (twenty years ago) link

i have nothing left to live for

Yanc3y (ystrickler), Friday, 8 August 2003 19:53 (twenty years ago) link

Ally's like that Paula Abdul song
-- nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (littlejohnnyjewe...), August 8th, 2003 3:53 PM. (later)

BURN!!!

NA (Nick A.), Friday, 8 August 2003 19:54 (twenty years ago) link

"cold hearted"

nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Friday, 8 August 2003 19:54 (twenty years ago) link

Look into my eyes!

Ally (mlescaut), Friday, 8 August 2003 19:55 (twenty years ago) link

kapatown my ass!

nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Friday, 8 August 2003 19:56 (twenty years ago) link

Sa da tay!!

Ally (mlescaut), Friday, 8 August 2003 19:56 (twenty years ago) link

you're a baddy daddy lamatai tebby chai

nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Friday, 8 August 2003 19:58 (twenty years ago) link

I'm a lady, you dirty greasebag.

Ally (mlescaut), Friday, 8 August 2003 20:00 (twenty years ago) link

I thought the premise of the entire thread was to worry about NA's friends.

felicity (felicity), Friday, 8 August 2003 21:01 (twenty years ago) link

Bill Parcells is a homo

nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Friday, 8 August 2003 21:02 (twenty years ago) link

It just seems like everyone and everything will pass through NYC at some point, that's what's appealing about it. London has that same appeal. Other cities...Chicago, San Francisco, etc. can be beautiful, but they seem stifling. They seem like dead ends, to me. More like islands.

Melissa W (Melissa W), Friday, 8 August 2003 21:46 (twenty years ago) link

London's even worse than New York

nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Friday, 8 August 2003 22:59 (twenty years ago) link

Nick, I've asked myself this question before, too. I mean, NYC is awesome, and I could probably even live there for a while, but yeah, I catch your drift.

Know what blows my mind? Well, Emily and I are moving to Charlottesville, Virginia in September -- C-Ville is a small city (with a town-ish feel but lots to do) at the foothills of the Blue Ridge Mountains, an hour from Richmond, three hours from the beach. It's gorgeous there, lots to do, great food, fairly progressive (especially for Virginia!), etc. Now, take Nick's question about picking NYC over any other major US city, and just think of how many minor cities like C-Ville there are out there, cool towns that hardly anyone outside of the state knows about but which are a lot of fun... the mind boggles.

Clarke B., Saturday, 9 August 2003 05:24 (twenty years ago) link

this is interesting to me, simply because I'm in so many of Ally's photographs (the subway one above w/me and her and Tracer may be a bit washed out but it may be my favorite of the whole bunch involving myself, for reals), and as donut bitch can attest, I'm starting to really feel like a Seattle resident again. I don't feel too conflicted about this dual residency, though, because I feel equally at home here and in NYC. (and Minneapolis, too, though that's a bit different--I don't necessarily see myself hankering to move back there anytime soon, though never say never.)

as some of you know, I moved back here for a job. in a month and a half or so, when a couple of large job-related projects are finished, I will be a much easier person to be around. but I don't *miss* NYC as intensely as I figured I would--and yet I have no doubt that I want to go back, that I WILL go back, someday, who knows when. but one of the city's chief charms is that if you've been there and you enjoy it (not everyone does, of course) you're pretty much a dual citizen of it and wherever you go afterward.

M Matos (M Matos), Saturday, 9 August 2003 06:03 (twenty years ago) link

this is interesting to me, simply because I'm in so many of Ally's photographs

I find you very interesting to take photos of, you're a good subject. The subway picture is more washed out on the scan than in the original, for some reason--I can't get the levels right at all because of the reflection of the flash off my face. What convinced me to dye my hair black, all the photos from that night are the same, I look SO white and it just contrasts badly and washes out everything. The pic came out real nice though, you and Tracer look just great in it and I remember when we took it, you said, "I think that'll be the best picture of the night" and it was but I never scanned it because it just seemed...personal? I dunno. Which made it fit here.

Just to explain beyond the obvious reasons why I'd take photos of you, ie you're my dawg.

Ally (mlescaut), Saturday, 9 August 2003 06:11 (twenty years ago) link

although certain things about NYC are pissing me off mightily right now -- and i find the strength in dealing with such shit by reminding myself that i am not a new yorker and i can fucking leave -- i don't really hate the place. when things are going right, it is quite unlike anything else in this world. but it's certainly not the only place in the world where one could live and/or work and have a good, happy and healthy life. matter of fact, yer chances of achieving any of the aforementioned might be higher outside of manhattan. still, it's nice to have around even if one never spends another second in the place -- like having war and peace or finnegan's wake on yer bookshelf, even if you never read either. which means that if/when i move, it'll be to either philly, baltimore or DC (boston is out).

Tad (llamasfur), Saturday, 9 August 2003 06:20 (twenty years ago) link

yes, it *is* personal. I'm usually pretty uneasy in front of a camera if I know it's there but I look really comfortable there, not straining at all. I get a real sense of gravity from that shot, and a sense of the three of us as a group rather than a collection of individuals, if that makes any sense.

M Matos (M Matos), Saturday, 9 August 2003 07:28 (twenty years ago) link

I like what Andrew said. If the "sell-outs" include a lot of people hopping off to New York in search of something they haven't identified yet (but something New York big) -- well, it's their presence that makes it possible, isn't it?

New York feels like a city dreamed into existence by a group of seriously coked-up people: "Right, right, there'll be a bar every three steps, and half of the people will look like models on their days off and act like drug-level flirty extroverts, and I guess we need a park so it should be just fucking huge, right, and and and. . ." I already know I don't have the energy (or the accessories) for this city, but whatever.

Other cities are great. Chicago's great, Boston's nice in its own skeezy way, I really like Atlanta now, San Francisco is the most beautiful thing ever (dreamed up by people on some combination of opium, ecstasy, and high-quality weed), and with the exception of maybe Arizona (sorry for your trials, Ally), the southwest is my favorite area of the country, and I can easily imagine myself wanting to live in Albuquerque or northern Colorado or even back in Pueblo, CO again. At some point.

But look, the NYC as "center of the arts" thing isn't just snobbery. Obviously you can make art anywhere; obviously. But the actual people and industries that transform the act of making art into a feasible industry are, for better or worse, all packed around this one city. If you want to work in trade publishing, you're moving there, period. If you want to write, you'll at least sort of benefit from getting out there and connecting yourself with other writers, editors, and agents. If you want to work in theatre, visual art, film. . . . (And you know: I'm sure it is snobbery on a lot of people's parts to point this out -- as if any artist worth anything will obviously be in NYC -- but a lot of the time it's just the realistic desire for people to slip in close to the industries they're trying to enter. You can be a great band in Indiana, but if you want to play a bunch of shows and hook up with a good-sized label, moving to Chicago isn't such a bad plan. Same goes for writers and actors and New York.)

New York is still brain-melting, though. I'm sure the coke-heads woke up the next morning and were filled with a gut-level fear of this massive chattering thing they'd created.

nabisco (nabisco), Saturday, 9 August 2003 14:38 (twenty years ago) link

"the LA metro area has more people than does the NY"

I really don't think so-- NY and vicinity has about 2x metro LA's population, from what I remember. Same applies to the cities themselves.

As for the Toronto booster: I think Jackson Heights alone beats your numbers for ethnic and linguistic diversity. I do really like Toronto, outside of its Protestant middle class, but alien-ness of New York is one of its most insistent and compelling features. And it applies to immigrants from inside the US: I know of subcultures of (for example) Detroiters, and there's a sizable building in Greenpoint filled with people from Memphis.

Benjamin (benjamin), Saturday, 9 August 2003 21:28 (twenty years ago) link

"Protestant middle class"

To expand: more English than England

Benjamin (benjamin), Saturday, 9 August 2003 21:32 (twenty years ago) link

yeah, I was wrong re metro area pop. NY is ~21M, and LA is ~16.5. NYC is ~8M and LA I think ~3.5M.

gabbneb (gabbneb), Saturday, 9 August 2003 21:42 (twenty years ago) link

Adrian, Ga's pretty cool

nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Saturday, 9 August 2003 23:50 (twenty years ago) link

But seriously, folks, why move to NYC and not anywhere else in the world? Is there anything left that's special or unique about NYC that doesn't exist in any other large US city? What leads to this mythology of the Big Apple?

Nick, obviously, NYC is not for everyone, but your remarks seem to betray a willful ignorance of the draw of the metropolis for many people. There is a definite NYC-bound pattern and history of writers (Fitzgerald, Capote, Thomas Wolfe, etc) and artists (Warhol et al) that feeds and perpetuates the mythology as the city as an escape from one's limited background.

In the above cases, NYC is provided in contrast to St. Louis, Alabama, North Carolina, Pittsburgh. The city holds a special draw for people from the South and the Midwest and is (was?) seen as a sight of licentiousness and freedom; historically it is one of the few places in America where gay men could feel comfortable.

Now, with the unearthing of subculture via TV and especially the internet, and the farming out of hip lifestyles to every corner of the US, the city is perhaps less necessary than ever for those wishing to lead an "alternative" life. Good thing, since the prices here preclude any sort of bohemian culture to greet any would-be cityspotters.

At the same time, the city itself is undergoing a suburbanization, and is awash in Starbucks etc. Sixth Avenue has become Avenue of the Stip Malls, with Bed Bath and Beyond and their like setting up camp. In addition, thanks to Giuliani and (and now Bloomberg?) civil liberties here are likely now at an all time low.

Stil, for many (and I can especially see why in the case of VA this would be the case, as it is my home town as well) the city still represents great opportunity and contrast. I came here because when I visited I really liked the energy on the street--yes, I thought it was like nowhere else in America, and I've since realized it is like no where else in the world (that I've been to).

I woundn't be too hard on your friends if they are acting smug about their planned moves--they will be struggling soon enough. It is definitely a challenge to live here.

(Disclaimer: I'm sure that many cities besides NY share characteristics with what I wrote above, but Nick asked about NYC, not anywhere else.)

Mary (Mary), Monday, 11 August 2003 17:40 (twenty years ago) link

TS: Acting smug about moving to NYC vs. acting smug about moving to Paris

amateurist (amateurist), Monday, 11 August 2003 17:58 (twenty years ago) link

Acting amug about moving to Paris is better, because you can pepper it with unbelievably pretentious French words and expressions. Or wait, maybe that's "worse"? I don't know what you're asking actually. Forget it.

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Monday, 11 August 2003 18:06 (twenty years ago) link


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