Magic: The Gathering C/D

yeah i'd actually say most of these are pretty off - just noticed watercourser at 10.11 while wind drake is well into the top half. i take the courser over wind drake in almost every blue deck

Clone seems way overrated too... it's a flexible card that would go in any deck but above Cathedral of War and Oblivion Ring?

but while actually using the site (http://tappedout.net/mtg-draft-simulator) the rankings (which they put under the cards) seem to fit fairly well w/ my choices

my understnading about those sites is that the rankings are generated from the users, and people who are using practice draft sims are generally not going to be the strongest drafters

plus M13 is way more of a synergy set than a goodstuff set unlike previous core sets - there's more of a distinct divide between cards for control and beatdown decks and therefore something like Welkin Tern can be a top 3 pick or an unplayable depending on what you're trying to do

I'd pick Sleep over like 60% of the cards above it, most of which are really not that great in Limited (Vampire Nocturnus seems like a good early pick until you realize that it's a vanilla 3/3 most of the time and there is only a couple of Vampires in the set)

other rankings I'm questioning, tell me yr thoughts:

Stormtide Leviathan 2.90
Gilded Lotus 3.17
Sleep 3.77
Chronomaton 5.86
Duty-Bound Dead 5.93
Krenko's Command 6.30
Tormented Soul 6.50
Prey Upon 6.90
Encrust 7.47
Courtly Provocateur 8.27

xp

Went 2-1 last night in another innistrad/dark ascension draft with red/green werewolves. Not sure I really get the love for these sets versus the general disinterest in m13 at my local store.

ha really, is sleep that good? when I've played against it all it does is buy someone some time. I guess it could be a win in the right circumstance, but cards that depend on circumstance aren't as good as cards that are always gonna be useful.

(the 5+s in that I think are underrated)

Stormtide - actually don't really have a problem with this, it's a big game-ending bomb and I don't know if there are any blue commons I'd take over it. Also it stops all non-flyers from attacking so like Elderscale it kind of protects you too. But I've never been good at evaluating dumb 8 mana rares. Wouldn't take it over Sleep or Talrand's Invocation though

Gilded Lotus - pretty much unplayable, and not even really worth money anymore either, don't get this at all

Sleep - definitely a top 3 blue card, should be higher

Chronomation - as an artifact I'd think it would be higher. Better than most commons so I find it hard to imagine that most packs have 5 cards better than it that happened to fit into whatever colors

Duty-Bound - seems about right, the exalted decks I build are always heavier White (I like War Falcon here)

Krenko's - again, seems right, maybe should be lower, I'm only glad to play this card when I have Arms Dealer or Krenko. Having multiple 1/1's kinda sucks in this format thanks to Cower in Fear and Chandra's Fury. Captains Call isn't very good either but it at least plays nice with other white cards.

Tormented Soul - seems okay, for some black decks this is like a 3rd pick, other black decks may not want it at all

Prey Upon - yeah, this is much better than Tormented Soul, I don't understand why this card comes around so late

Encrust - it's never as good as it looks sadly, still a solid card, I'd take it as a 7th pick

Provocateur - another card that seems better than it actually is...I've had success with it in Green/Blue though. In general it's harder to find good opportunities to use this than you might think.

Sleep definitely is that good - if you're behind, it buys you 2 turns, if you're ahead, it can be an auto-win. I understand taking Invocation over it because that card is really always useful, while Sleep isn't the kind of card you want in your opening hand. But every time I've cast it, it's been a bomb.

duty-bound to me seems like the best one drop around, but maybe I'm overrating it due to how many wins it's gotten me.

more

Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker 2.60 is this even playable p1p1?
Primal Clay 5.96 can fit in p much every deck?
Fervor 4.83 overrated even as a 5th pick?

I think Chronomaton is a better one drop - Duty Bound is probably one of the best but one-drops generally aren't very good in Limited. I'm sure it's good in B/anything but in general my exalted decks always skew heavy white.

On the other three there, I've tried and failed to make Bolas ever work, so yeah. For Clay, 6th seems alright...it fits into any deck yes but you're either overpaying for Centaur Corsair or you are for Wind Drake, and the Wall option isn't exactly earth-shattering either. I pick 'em up and I'm okay playing them but in general it's not very good. Fervor I've never seen played period so I can't really say, my guess is it's only good if you don't have 3 drops

the one that really confuses me is this - Scorpion is a top black common, outside of Murder obviously

Rise from the Grave 4.80
Giant Scorpion 4.95

the rares really skew this in a weird way. So many basically unplayable rares like Faith's Reward, Hamletback, Phylatchery Lich, etc. are being pegged as 4th-5th picks

hamletback seems playable imo. lich I would play if I was running 66%+ black w/ 4+ artifacts.

i dunno how many drafts will have even one deck that fits that description. outside of some uncommons it's tough to wind up with 4 playable artifacts

Hamletback has always been disappointing. Gets shut down by a lot, costs too much in a color that really tries to be fast, and it's in a set with a lot of common token producers. I've played it and I've seen it balloon up to like a 20/20 or so but it never wins me any games the way a Stormtide would. I usually side it out.

hamletback is terrible its probably the second worst red rare tbh. its basically 7 mana to do nothing

bolas is a p sweet p1p1 since you can definitely build around it and its certainly a huge bomb - ive drafted bolas 4 times and the only time i didnt do well was when i was passed him p2p2 and had been drafting a much more aggressive red/black deck built around arms dealer and even then i managed to go 2-2 in matches and like 5-4 in games.

ive made fervor work in a nearly mono-red g/r aggro deck but it was still a terrible option tbh and i probably shouldnt have played it.

i dont think sleep is very good and i really liked u/x tempo decks in M13. i guess i just agree w/the common wisdom that achieves too little when you're behind and doesn't do enough when you're ahead esp because my blue decks tend not to have that much trouble getting through as is.

yeah I guess for 7 mana you want more than 'be a really big creature'

you got time to practice draft? prob the only opportunity I'll have to steal gf's comp this week.

I got jace, talrand and his invocation, quirion, sands and 3 mind sculpts in a fake draft

I want to play that deck :(

the problem I always have w/ Bolas is it's 3 colors. I like splashing a color and playing Gem of Becoming but that's hard to pull off.

I dunno why you guys are having such bad experiences w/ Sleep. If you're going flying kill it stalls a couple turns so you can win the race, if you've got ground creatures they're all basically unblockable for two turns.

xp that reminds me of a draft I did where a guy went Turn 2 Mind Sculpt, Turn 3 Mind Sculpt, Turn 4 double Mind Sculpt. I was blown away.

my desire to play a mill deck is so strong that I am gonna inevitably draft a shitty blue deck w/ two mind sculpts irl

mind sculpt decks are so bad, i have lost with a 'nut draw' of t2 mind sculpt, t3 mind sculpt, t4 archaeomancer and it wasn't particularly close. you need like 5+ for it to work

The thing is the two best mill cards are Sands and Jace and they don't really need any support. Mill decks in Limited are always flukes - nobody takes the key common, whatever it is, you just need a lot of them to be opened for it to work, so you're really going against odds. Curse of the Bloody Tome would only work if you got like, six of them; you get a 1 in 8 chance of pulling one in each pack, so even if you get every single one at the table, you likely won't have enough.

you got time to practice draft? prob the only opportunity I'll have to steal gf's comp this week.

sorry in the middle of laundry and then im going out

I dunno why you guys are having such bad experiences w/ Sleep.

ive only had one game where it was actively bad and even then i bought me at least an extra draw step, its more that i rarely want one and so consequently tend not to draft it. i like p much every blue uncommon except courtly over it and there are at least two blue commons - unsummon and tern - that i take over it

yeah I have to go to parties w/ grad students tonight, it's tragic I would much rather keep pretend drafting and drink at home

the only uncommon I'd take over it is Talrand's Invocation, I dunno maybe I've just won so many unwinnable games with that card that I'm overvaluing it? but taking it over Unsummon seems just wrong.

you'd take it over fog bank?

absolutely

sleep is for beatdown decks that aren't heavy on fliers, which usually means UG or maybe UR if you have a lot of flunkies etc. it's decent in other situations but not amazing

i guess its also a way for your welkin terns to race centaur coursers in a fliers deck

it just seems too context dependent to be a sure thing early pick

like you're never gonna be bummed about drawing fog bank or talrand's in your first 7

Yeah and I do admit. Talrand's better b/c you always want that, Fog Bank sometimes just isn't relevant for a while but you can at least fit it as your 2-drop. Sleep I like because it turns a lot of losing situations into surprise wins when you're totally outclassed on the board and gives you two extra turns to race in a flyer deck (I also like Downpour more than most). That said I never had to choose between those three uncommons but I do think all three are better than any of blue's commons.

like I had one game where I had a Welkin Tern, two Attended Knights w/ Soldier tokens, and maybe one other guy out while my opponent was playing Deadly Recluses and big green dudes, Sleep can totally win you a game like that, that you couldn't win otherwise

yeah but I think you're putting too much weight on those miracle games and not enough weight on the many other times when it was just another card in your hand

perhaps - but it always seems to be a card I wish I had/hoped my opponent didn't

anyway, what do you guys think about Mwonvuli Beast Tracker? I've been quite underwhelmed with it

i only take it if i have silklash spider, vampire nighthawk, or xathrid gorgon. in my experience the common spiders and slimes aren't reason enough to play it over a better creature

I loved Sleep in M10 and M11, but something about this format made it worse. Control decks seem more viable in this set and it's terrible for them, basically just Fog. And in an aggressive deck, I've sometimes found myself trading off creatures and losing them to removal, in which case Sleep is a horrible topdeck. Still a fairly high pick for blue, but not for every deck.

frogbs - Sleep buys you one turn if you use it defensively or if you have flyers and are racing ground durdles, not two turns. It's good if you have a couple of 3/3s that wouldn't ordinarily get through and you can suddenly represent 10+ damage out of nowhere, but in almost every other situation it's a four-mana fog. The upside is good enough that I agree I would take it over most (all?) blue commons, but I'm not sure it's better than Fog Bank or Switcheroo. If I took it early in pack one I'd only be about 70% to even end up maindecking it, since so many blue decks end up pretty controllish.

I guess what Vinnie said

yeah sorry I mindboggled myself, yes I suppose it's a glorified Fog in some cases but even in that case it gives you one free whack at your opponent, and if two wins you the game then it gives you that. I guess if everyone thinks I'm overrating it I'll just assume that maybe it's not as good as I'm saying, just know it's the card I wish I had a LOT, and also the one blue uncommon I'm usually afraid of my opponent having (outside of a turn 4-5 Talrand's Summoning which always sucks)

some guy just spoiled almost the entire RTR set

first impressions:
-lots of big clunky creatures and spells at common/uncommon, plus good defensive creatures in every color. will probably be the slowest format since Rise of the Eldrazi. this is awesome.
-only a few hard removal spells at common (and i'm even counting the 5 damage red spell which doesn't kill some of the green creatures). i can see the ground getting gummed up pretty regularly. evasion and tricks for breaking board stalls will be pretty important.
-playing rakdos is going to require some serious tightrope walking - the raw power is there on the unleash guys but you're playing an aggro strategy in a good control set and it'll be real hard to beat something like that 3/4 hexproof green guy.
-multicolor-ness isn't played up quite as much as in the original ravnica block. i think 2-color decks will be doable here, whereas old ravnica pretty much required you to be 3 to get enough good spells.

vitu-ghazi guildmage seems like an absurd bomb for an uncommon

Wow @ the one mana unleash that's R/B hybrid. Surely a red 2/2 can't block for one is going to get played. Between that and Ash Zealot (and Thundermaw, I guess) it looks like red may be relevant again?

BTW I know this has been spoiled for a while but I feel like Cyclonic Rift has the potential to be nuts, Delver/Snapcaster is still going to be a thing so a good tempo card with the option of a late-game blowout seems good to me.

In general I think there are probably more good rares than we've ever gotten (seriously, Apocalypse is the last set I can remember with such a high % of playable rares), but saturation of this set is going to tank a lot of them to lower prices than everyone is expecting. Shocklands already down to $12 and dropping.

yep i expect all the good rares to be down to $5 after a month barring a product shortage. there's just too many for them to all hold price

Tavern Swindler 1B
Creature - Human Rogue
T, Pay 3 life: Flip a coin. If you win the flip, you gain 6 life.
2/2

I can't explain why but I'm so glad this card exists.

Also I'm getting the same impression as you cider, this format is going to be slow and I'm guessing will be about developing small advantages over time, with the exception of Rakdos which seems like it gets some great aggro cards. I'm really curious to see how Izzet plays out here.

I like how this is an active thread now

yeah but its mainly just me and frogbs nerding out constantly and scaring away the people who don't draft 3 times a week