amanda palmer's open poem to jonathan chait (and other crimes)

(xpPS I have no musical talent, though that doesn't stop me trying, and the one time I appeared onstage my payment was a bottle of beer from the rider which I immediately gave to a friend as I don't drink beer, and I still felt like a GOD for like 0.2 seconds until the soundguy decided that the venue-provided equipment I was plugged into was faulty and therefore my channel was getting killed, fuck off)

(sorry, this is not the spacecadet's decade-old livejournal thread, is it?)

i can see both sides (given that palmer has a very established fandom) but the kickstarter thing casts this in a COMPLETELY different light. you can't raise $1.2 mil and cry poor about $35K.

just going to put this here

xxp "There are worse things" is not a defense.

The wholly objectionable thing with Palmer asking her fans to perform with her is the whole "you have to be good, a year of lessons in fifth grade don't count; send us an artistic resume" part.

sund4r, I don't think you're really disagreeing with either me or DJP there. Certainly not me, anyway.

there are many corporations or organizations that offer unpaid internships, many of which strike me as more exploitative than this situation.

This is true, but I am actively against such practises. I don't think "there are worse things" is a good argument.

^^^ otm

A big portion of my ire goes towards the people that are leaping at this "opportunity" in the same way I get irked by architects that trip over themselves to get unpaid "internships" at hip firms just for the resume entry and only encouraging the idea that what we do isn't worth being paid for.

I could play "who's the asshole" all day. There is a tacit arrangement within the independent community of musicians which boils down to "let's not pull each others' dicks". Union aside, contracts aside, it's simply this: be sweet to your fellow musicians. Pay them when they work for you. Represent their interests cleanly and politely. It might sound cloudy-eyed and utopian but like wages are low so it's important to treat people right. I mean, even now I'm weighing my words here, Amanda is not a friend but she works with my friends, etc., so I'm trying to keep phrases like "human garbage" to myself.

This Amanda Palmer incident reminds me so clearly of when indie musicians collide with the world of film, where movie producers who Actually Want To See You Die will start using terms like "foot in the door" or "an opportunity" as the basis of exploitation.

The dissonance between these two worlds is totally fine! and OK! and it's not like musicians don't have the balls to negotiate a contract! But it's incredibly, incredibly insulting and makes me, well, livid, that a person who has publicly raised $1.2 million would say that she can't afford $35K of it to employ six musicians as her backing band.

On one hand, yeah, you can be like "the fans are happy, I'm happy, the musicians are happy, etc." but it's not just these exploited fans, it is also the musicians who Amanda should've hired who she didn't hire. Lost jobs. The fact, too, that the disparity between her income (1.2m) and required expense (35K) is so enormous. Call me an asshole for whining but this woman is in the wrong.

Hurting, how would you feel if the overarching cultural opinion of the law profession is that people should just be satisfied by the joy the get from practicing it and asking to be paid for your services/expertise is presumptuous/self-serving? Furthermore, what would be your opinion of a law firm that, after soliciting donations from a large base of people to get itself established and raising more money than anyone thought possible, took on a large caseload and then sent out a message to other lawyers asking them to help out on a case or two in exchange for a beer?

That is exactly what is happening here.

― DARING PRINCESS (DJP), Thursday, September 13, 2012 1:01 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I actually just minutes ago agreed to draft some contract language free for an art-related thingy, just because it would be an interesting side project for me and it's a cool organization.

I agree that the "you have to come to a rehearsal and have a resume" part is slightly pushing things (although it doesn't seem to require that you actually be a professional musician), but it's a couple of tunes in one show and no one has to do it at all. And there's no false promise of opportunity or career advancement here (unlike with exploitive internships) -- it's really just an "I am doing this because I think it would be fun" thing for the musicians. I find it hard to believe that people are seeing this as an opportunity.

The fact, too, that the disparity between her income (1.2m) and required expense (35K) is so enormous. Call me an asshole for whining but this woman is in the wrong.

This is so the key thing here, which separates this from a lot of other situations, and can't be stressed enough wrt Palmer.

If she were to be running things like a "who wants to jam on a couple songs?" that'd be one thing. But she's gone on record being like "ha ha, I can't afford a band! $35K? For the entire tour?" and this why she sucks. If somebody gave me or DJP or anybody I know $1.2 million I'd hire every musician I know and we'd tour forever

isn't "doesn't get paid for their work" kind of the definition of "amateur"? like, if you got paid, you wouldn't be amateur, you'd be professional

"Amateur" in the musical sense doesn't mean you don't get paid, it means that less than 50% of your income is derived from playing music

internships -- not just corporate but non-profits too! -- definitely have exploitation written into them. the lever of control is the promise that the internship isn't a dead end. it's either the bottom rung of a ladder that will go up in tim, or a resume builder.

i don't think playing in AP's pickup orchestra even has that going for it. afaict she just wants people to work for her for nothing.

that said, it's a free country. if she can find enough people that meet her exacting criteria willing to do it for the rewarding fan experience alone, happy to see her raise $1mUSD, well, i can't really second guess that.

that's if! is there any indication that this will or has worked out? (not digging into the weeds here, sorry)

many xps, lots of ppl have made those points i see

whoops, typo. poor tim.

I don't really understand the logic of comparing those numbers. I think the relevant question would be what she makes per gig, and what's left over after paying her band, touring expenses, etc.

oh come on

"Amateur" in the musical sense doesn't mean you don't get paid, it means that less than 50% of your income is derived from playing music

― would smash pumpkins (Ówen P.), Thursday, September 13, 2012 12:25 PM (55 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

huh well that seems like an arbitrary and oddly authoritative definition but i'll take your word for it?

are you even serious anymore Hurting or just straight trollin'?

well whatever the numbers turn out to be an extra million head start is pretty nice.

I've never heard Palmer's music, or really read about her before now, but the general profile I'm getting here is of someone whose behavior is rather borderline-y for a 36 y.o.

hurting on the kickstarter page she literally talks about possibly banking $100K of what is raised after all expenses, which apparently didn't include these musicians.

@ n/a that's the AFM's definition

fwiw, the $1.2 million she raised on kickstarter is also not "her income"

http://www.kickstarter.com/blog/amandas-million

this claims her take-home was $100,000 (which, again, is basically her take-home from the sales of a record, so I don't understand the purpose of using it as a base for determining whether she can afford to spend money on horn players on a tour).

if she's using the kickstarter money for her tour she should have budgeted in the cost of musicians

A big portion of my ire goes towards the people that are leaping at this "opportunity" in the same way I get irked by architects that trip over themselves to get unpaid "internships" at hip firms just for the resume entry and only encouraging the idea that what we do isn't worth being paid for.

I guess it's not entirely clear to me what people think should be done about these situations. Do we want labour legislation to prohibit internships or unpaid gigs? Should we just use the Internet to publicly shame people who choose to offer these opportunities? How would we determine fair compensation for something like this? Whatever the musicians' unions demand? Clearly, Palmer is offering a market rate if people are willing to go for this deal. I'm no free marketeer but I'm actually curious how we'd decide this. What if someone has less money to start out with than Palmer does in the first place? Is it OK for them to pay musicians less?

Btw, afaict, the situation is even worse for composers than it is for performers. At US festivals, it is not uncommon that composers whose works are selected for performance have to pay a fee to have their work performed. Are composers owed a salary or stipend for their work as well?

many xposts I'm not trying to be a dick. I really respect what Owen and DJP and everyone has to say. These are just the questions that this raises for me. I'm not even saying that this isn't a douchey thing to do!

i generally think she's full of shit and the press about her is embarrassing (though unsurprising given that the bulk of her cheerleaders come from the tech press, which never saw a bubble manifestation it didn't think was the second coming of christ) but come ON, the woman has money. this is pt barnum level bullshit under the guise of 'fun'

I'm in a very different boat to Owen, being a perennial no-hoper in the music world - most of what I do I make no money from, if anything I lose money from making music - so I do have sympathy for people who are responding to this positively. If you really like Palmer's work you'd probably be made-up to get to play with your hero. But basically he is OTM - don't cry poor when everyone knows you're not, don't be all "fuck paying a band", don't get your army of fans to do REAL WORK and not pay them, have a little respect for other people, don't be a dickhead.

is there a link to the actual kickstarter thing where she went into the detail, as mentioned in Hurting's link?

So I take it none of you have ever illegally downloaded a record, since music has so much true value that is unrecognized only by exploiters like Amanda Palmer

yes jon back up at the top of the revive

umm i'm not raking in $1.2 million by claiming that what i'm doing is the future, so your analogy doesn't really hold

I guess it's not entirely clear to me what people think should be done about these situations. Do we want labour legislation to prohibit internships or unpaid gigs? Should we just use the Internet to publicly shame people who choose to offer these opportunities? How would we determine fair compensation for something like this? Whatever the musicians' unions demand? Clearly, Palmer is offering a market rate if people are willing to go for this deal. I'm no free marketeer but I'm actually curious how we'd decide this. What if someone has less money to start out with than Palmer does in the first place? Is it OK for them to pay musicians less?

These are all good questions! I don't know the answers either. I brought up the architect thing because when I was laid off and looking for work, it was really disheartening to see so many people leap all over these unpaid internships that made it more and more difficult for me to find a paying job. I understand the benefits of internships for people just coming out of school or even still in school, but I knew licensed architects over 35 that had been working paid positions for many years that took unpaid internships at a big firm because it would be "cool". I mean, I guess good on them if their lifestyle allows them to be able to do that, but it ultimately does the whole profession a disservice by not advocating that we should be paid for our work.

But thats a digression fit for a different thread, so I'll end the rant there.

yes jon back up at the top of the revive

Thanks, wasn't sure if those kickstarted pages stayed up after completion.

So I take it none of you have ever illegally downloaded a record, since music has so much true value that is unrecognized only by exploiters like Amanda Palmer

apples, meet oranges

Also a vast difference in structural make-up of those two issues (theft vs exploitation, consumer vs capitalist).

xposts to Maura & Hurting

Branca...

That's an interesting one, along with 77 drummers... I was gonna say the Network too, but I think Networkers do get paid...

Branca...

Yes, this was in my mind throughout this discussion: no one got paid to play in the premiere of Symphony 13. Was this exploitative?

xpost

So I take it none of you have ever illegally downloaded a record, since music has so much true value that is unrecognized only by exploiters like Amanda Palmer

hahaha have you ever seen me on any of the downloading discussions, I'm assuming no

Boadrum 77 was a free event

Was 77 drummers a free thing though? Don't remember. I think I'd classify that as more of an "art installation" type of one-time event, which puts it in a vastly different category from Palmer's touring, from which she will be making money at each stop.

True, true, valid point about it being free. Also the 'one-off' nature does make it very different - it's not an integral part of the structure of your tour.

Yeah, tbf, the Hallucination City premiere was free for the audience too. I'm not sure that Branca made much money from it.

I was really upset twenty minutes ago and I apologize to anybody for getting so animated. I'm thinking right now about Taylor Swift having her dopey band featured so prominently in her video and feeling real good about that.

Also 77 was an attempt to make something much vaster in scale than regular touring conditions would allow. Palmer is looking for a regular size backup band.

Isn't she looking for horns and strings, without taking those players on the road? And also giving the audience a different thrill than watching a pro touring band?

To get back to Hurting's point a little, no matter the actual economics behind her Kickstarter thing, it makes it a little hard for people to swallow this "poor me, I can't afford $35k for musicians" when she just, mere months ago, made headlines all over the internet for making $1.2 million. I think the perception of this is why there is so much virtiol from certain quarters.

If somebody gave me or DJP or anybody I know $1.2 million I'd hire every musician I know and we'd tour forever

this tour would be so fucking fly