amanda palmer's open poem to jonathan chait (and other crimes)

not enough facepalms in the world

― DARING PRINCESS (DJP), Thursday, September 13, 2012 12:44 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Amanda Facepalmer

For 36 she's doing a great job of seeming 18.

AFP for short.

Goddammit it's time ILX added "like" functionality to posts!

The string/horn sections she pulled together for the immediate post-Kickstarter mini-tour thing were all fans who opted in. They were asked to learn two songs I think, and turn up in time to soundcheck - and they looked like the happiest damn fans on earth onstage (as well as actually being really good).

― Background Zombie (CharlieNo4), Thursday, September 13, 2012 10:26 AM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

People who are whining about this are the assholes imo.

Not to say she's not an asshole, generally, I just don't think she's the asshole here.

Amanda Facepalmer OMG OMG OMG

"It gets better, and you win, and then you never have to worry about the effect on anyone of anything you say or do again, because you have WON"

yeah, this might be it? I feel like perhaps when Ms Palmer was young and fucked up - and I am suspicious of anyone who didn't feel a bit fucked up at that age - she developed such an army of other young, fucked-up people who would defend anything she did that she never really had to grow past this and develop some sort of self-awareness or "maybe I'd better not say this as it will sound horrible and potentially marginalise other people" instead of going "ah but I am a tortured artiste and very clever, see my legions of fans"

(I really go back and forth on her - I have never heard a full album past the Dresden Dolls' first, which had like 1.6 good songs, but hell if Girl Anachronism wasn't a perfect encapsulation of that time of being 18 and fucked-up and almost revelling in the self-pity and transgression of it, all while also knowing people revelling even more openly in it and swinging between "that girl is really annoying!" and "I hope things get better for that girl, she doesn't deserve to be in that place". Also I like to get drunk and watch the DDs' live cover of "Eisbär" on repeat, sometimes.)

Another thing to be grateful to Amanda Palmer for: accelerating Neil Gaiman's shark-jump moments to dispel any doubt in anyone still left thinking he might yet do something else interesting

Hurting, how would you feel if the overarching cultural opinion of the law profession is that people should just be satisfied by the joy the get from practicing it and asking to be paid for your services/expertise is presumptuous/self-serving? Furthermore, what would be your opinion of a law firm that, after soliciting donations from a large base of people to get itself established and raising more money than anyone thought possible, took on a large caseload and then sent out a message to other lawyers asking them to help out on a case or two in exchange for a beer?

That is exactly what is happening here.

hurting is a musician btw

As is DJP and Owen P and...

The thing that put me off Amanda Palmer completely was her goddamn enabling of Wayne Coyne to continue being an asshole. Like after he leaked that video with Erykah Badu and her sister without their permission and Erykah (completely justifiably) had the video pulled, Amanda jumped right in to redo Erykah (and her sister's) part. I mean, of course its 100% Palmer's prerogative to be willing to go naked in the video, but I just was put off by the whole way Coyne just erased Badu from the track like a giant "fuck you" to her for daring to be pissed off about the way he treated her. And I felt like Palmer really enabled that by jumping in so willingly.

Wait, what? Wayne Coyne leaked a naked video of Erykah Badu? WTF?

i know, but his opinion as a musician is valid too, no need for analogies.

xp

Wait, what? Wayne Coyne leaked a naked video of Erykah Badu? WTF?

Here and onwards. And onwards.

I just get a 404 from that.

Wait, what? Wayne Coyne leaked a naked video of Erykah Badu? WTF?

Erykah did a duet with the Flaming Lips on their collab album and then they "released" a very NSFW video for it with Erykah and her sister in a tub, getting liquid stuff splattered all over them (I use "them" because its always only one of them in the shots, afaik her sister did the actual nude shots). Anyway, turned out Coyne leaked it without her permission and a shitstorm blew up on Twitter.

or just see that link, lol

Wayne Coyne is clearly Amanda Palmer's guru in the way of "artists can't be assholes, silly".

(many xps) Well, I think it's OK as a one-off or even a short-tour-off if an artist recognises that they have fans with musical talents who have probably already learnt their songs, and if those fans want to volunteer to come onstage with little extra practising required and be paid nothing except being near their favourite band, or having people see them, or maybe a t-shirt and a CD from the merch desk and a bottle of beer from the rider (NB I have not seen this last suggested perk mentioned so I guess even that wasn't offered)

but for one thing the key words there are "want to volunteer", and also for an entire major tour it's a little suspect to ask people to work in their spare time for free, yes; especially when said fans have just given you eleven bazillion dollars on a Kickstarter project, one which significantly exceeded its funding goal and therefore you might think had some spare funds lying around

This any better?

Erykah Badu: C /D, S&D

Erykah did a duet with the Flaming Lips on their collab album and then they "released" a very NSFW video for it with Erykah and her sister in a tub, getting liquid stuff splattered all over them (I use "them" because its always only one of them in the shots, afaik her sister did the actual nude shots). Anyway, turned out Coyne leaked it without her permission and a shitstorm blew up on Twitter.

Just to add to this, a couple weeks back, The Flaming Lips released a new version of the video with Palmer in it instead of Badu.

Yeah, thats what I mentioned about about Palmer enabling Coyne to be an asshole.

People who are whining about this are the assholes imo.

I don't really have a clear opinion about the volunteer musicians issue tbh, especially if people are just playing on two songs, not an entire set, and considering that people are freely choosing to do this. Playing gigs for free pretty much seems to be a part of life for amateur musicians. The experience and networking opportunities may well turn out to be useful for players. I don't think it's necessarily a really great thing to do but I'm not sure whether it's an injustice or something that I could imagine protesting.

many xps I don't know about the legal field but certainly there are many corporations or organizations that offer unpaid internships, many of which strike me as more exploitative than this situation.

Hurting, how would you feel if the overarching cultural opinion of the law profession is that people should just be satisfied by the joy the get from practicing it and asking to be paid for your services/expertise is presumptuous/self-serving? Furthermore, what would be your opinion of a law firm that, after soliciting donations from a large base of people to get itself established and raising more money than anyone thought possible, took on a large caseload and then sent out a message to other lawyers asking them to help out on a case or two in exchange for a beer?

That is exactly what is happening here.

while i get what you are saying, this is actually not the greatest example, because lawyers are actually required by the aba to do pro bono work :)

i happen to think she is an entitled asshole of he worst kind though so i'm not disagreeing with you, and don't think that people that disagree are whining.

(xpPS I have no musical talent, though that doesn't stop me trying, and the one time I appeared onstage my payment was a bottle of beer from the rider which I immediately gave to a friend as I don't drink beer, and I still felt like a GOD for like 0.2 seconds until the soundguy decided that the venue-provided equipment I was plugged into was faulty and therefore my channel was getting killed, fuck off)

(sorry, this is not the spacecadet's decade-old livejournal thread, is it?)

i can see both sides (given that palmer has a very established fandom) but the kickstarter thing casts this in a COMPLETELY different light. you can't raise $1.2 mil and cry poor about $35K.

just going to put this here

xxp "There are worse things" is not a defense.

The wholly objectionable thing with Palmer asking her fans to perform with her is the whole "you have to be good, a year of lessons in fifth grade don't count; send us an artistic resume" part.

sund4r, I don't think you're really disagreeing with either me or DJP there. Certainly not me, anyway.

there are many corporations or organizations that offer unpaid internships, many of which strike me as more exploitative than this situation.

This is true, but I am actively against such practises. I don't think "there are worse things" is a good argument.

^^^ otm

A big portion of my ire goes towards the people that are leaping at this "opportunity" in the same way I get irked by architects that trip over themselves to get unpaid "internships" at hip firms just for the resume entry and only encouraging the idea that what we do isn't worth being paid for.

I could play "who's the asshole" all day. There is a tacit arrangement within the independent community of musicians which boils down to "let's not pull each others' dicks". Union aside, contracts aside, it's simply this: be sweet to your fellow musicians. Pay them when they work for you. Represent their interests cleanly and politely. It might sound cloudy-eyed and utopian but like wages are low so it's important to treat people right. I mean, even now I'm weighing my words here, Amanda is not a friend but she works with my friends, etc., so I'm trying to keep phrases like "human garbage" to myself.

This Amanda Palmer incident reminds me so clearly of when indie musicians collide with the world of film, where movie producers who Actually Want To See You Die will start using terms like "foot in the door" or "an opportunity" as the basis of exploitation.

The dissonance between these two worlds is totally fine! and OK! and it's not like musicians don't have the balls to negotiate a contract! But it's incredibly, incredibly insulting and makes me, well, livid, that a person who has publicly raised $1.2 million would say that she can't afford $35K of it to employ six musicians as her backing band.

On one hand, yeah, you can be like "the fans are happy, I'm happy, the musicians are happy, etc." but it's not just these exploited fans, it is also the musicians who Amanda should've hired who she didn't hire. Lost jobs. The fact, too, that the disparity between her income (1.2m) and required expense (35K) is so enormous. Call me an asshole for whining but this woman is in the wrong.

Hurting, how would you feel if the overarching cultural opinion of the law profession is that people should just be satisfied by the joy the get from practicing it and asking to be paid for your services/expertise is presumptuous/self-serving? Furthermore, what would be your opinion of a law firm that, after soliciting donations from a large base of people to get itself established and raising more money than anyone thought possible, took on a large caseload and then sent out a message to other lawyers asking them to help out on a case or two in exchange for a beer?

That is exactly what is happening here.

― DARING PRINCESS (DJP), Thursday, September 13, 2012 1:01 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I actually just minutes ago agreed to draft some contract language free for an art-related thingy, just because it would be an interesting side project for me and it's a cool organization.

I agree that the "you have to come to a rehearsal and have a resume" part is slightly pushing things (although it doesn't seem to require that you actually be a professional musician), but it's a couple of tunes in one show and no one has to do it at all. And there's no false promise of opportunity or career advancement here (unlike with exploitive internships) -- it's really just an "I am doing this because I think it would be fun" thing for the musicians. I find it hard to believe that people are seeing this as an opportunity.

The fact, too, that the disparity between her income (1.2m) and required expense (35K) is so enormous. Call me an asshole for whining but this woman is in the wrong.

This is so the key thing here, which separates this from a lot of other situations, and can't be stressed enough wrt Palmer.

If she were to be running things like a "who wants to jam on a couple songs?" that'd be one thing. But she's gone on record being like "ha ha, I can't afford a band! $35K? For the entire tour?" and this why she sucks. If somebody gave me or DJP or anybody I know $1.2 million I'd hire every musician I know and we'd tour forever

isn't "doesn't get paid for their work" kind of the definition of "amateur"? like, if you got paid, you wouldn't be amateur, you'd be professional

"Amateur" in the musical sense doesn't mean you don't get paid, it means that less than 50% of your income is derived from playing music

internships -- not just corporate but non-profits too! -- definitely have exploitation written into them. the lever of control is the promise that the internship isn't a dead end. it's either the bottom rung of a ladder that will go up in tim, or a resume builder.

i don't think playing in AP's pickup orchestra even has that going for it. afaict she just wants people to work for her for nothing.

that said, it's a free country. if she can find enough people that meet her exacting criteria willing to do it for the rewarding fan experience alone, happy to see her raise $1mUSD, well, i can't really second guess that.

that's if! is there any indication that this will or has worked out? (not digging into the weeds here, sorry)

many xps, lots of ppl have made those points i see

whoops, typo. poor tim.

I don't really understand the logic of comparing those numbers. I think the relevant question would be what she makes per gig, and what's left over after paying her band, touring expenses, etc.

oh come on

"Amateur" in the musical sense doesn't mean you don't get paid, it means that less than 50% of your income is derived from playing music

― would smash pumpkins (Ówen P.), Thursday, September 13, 2012 12:25 PM (55 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

huh well that seems like an arbitrary and oddly authoritative definition but i'll take your word for it?

are you even serious anymore Hurting or just straight trollin'?

well whatever the numbers turn out to be an extra million head start is pretty nice.

I've never heard Palmer's music, or really read about her before now, but the general profile I'm getting here is of someone whose behavior is rather borderline-y for a 36 y.o.

hurting on the kickstarter page she literally talks about possibly banking $100K of what is raised after all expenses, which apparently didn't include these musicians.

@ n/a that's the AFM's definition

fwiw, the $1.2 million she raised on kickstarter is also not "her income"

http://www.kickstarter.com/blog/amandas-million

this claims her take-home was $100,000 (which, again, is basically her take-home from the sales of a record, so I don't understand the purpose of using it as a base for determining whether she can afford to spend money on horn players on a tour).