amanda palmer's open poem to jonathan chait (and other crimes)

Elvis Costello had written fifteen fantastic songs by the time he'd written his first dozen songs, is my view. But I am more willing than a lot of you to separate out "is a great artist" and "is an asshole".

I know sometimes we don't agree on things WCC, but sometimes I really like you. And tossing EC in the same bucket as Amanda Palmer brought a smile to my face. You've been otm itt.

I've never heard anything Costello has written that has ever touched me in the same way that Love has. Love and her music and lyrics have explained some of the darker parts of me to myself, in ways I would never have understood had she not written those songs. I think that someone who has had that kind of personal effect on you, you become willing to put up with a lot of other negative crap, in the same way that if you have a friend who constantly winds you up e.g. by being late to everything, but has been there for you when other people haven't - you are willing to excuse the annoying stuff to get the good stuff.

I am certainly willing to accept that there are people, many people whose opinions I respect, for whom Palmer has had that kind of "explain your darkest bits to yourself" effect on.

There's also the thing where an artist you like does something horrible and actually acknowledges that it was horrible, such as the whole situation with Lol Tolhurst in The Cure and how abused he was by everyone as he was drowning in alcohol; everyone involved admitted what happened and everyone involved to my knowledge (I have at least read things from both Robert and Roger) said it was a really fucked up thing for them to do and they weren't proud of it. That at least shows some amount of self-realization and empathy for others; the subsequent reconciliation and Lol's performance with The Cure at the Sydney gig gives me a good amount of hope that they've worked through their issues and come out the other side.

Courtney Love did much the same type of "sorry for these instances where I was an asshole" thing in her most recent Behind the Music, which also made me like her more.

If Amanda Palmer has ever said "sorry for being an asshole", I've never seen it.

I don't know that Amanda Palmer has been around to get a Behind The Music, or even have her "sorry I was an asshole" moment. I think of her as really young?

she's 36!

not to cast judgment on what is young or old.

I guess what that means then, is that I am ~really~ old ha ha ha.

I've never heard anything Costello has written that has ever touched me in the same way that Love has. Love and her music and lyrics have explained some of the darker parts of me to myself, in ways I would never have understood had she not written those songs.

No, I totally agree - with Love and Costello switched. And that's fine - relative and subjective. I just don't need to like my favourite artists, generally.

(Okay okay, if I believed that Elvis's big fuck-up was heartfelt rather than random self-destruction, that would probably make a difference)

But then I guess there are artists who do intentionally blur the personal and the art - like, I appreciate what WCC and c sharp major are saying about Amanda Palmer being a living "It gets better", but the problem is that the entanglement persists, so it's "It gets better, and you win, and then you never have to worry about the effect on anyone of anything you say or do again, because you have WON".

Being in Boston, I feel like I've been heating about Amanda Palmer since college

or hearing, even

Just realised I was at the Corner Hotel gig in the YouTube clip above - don't remember anyone gasping in horror at the time.

Being in Boston, I feel like I've been heating about Amanda Palmer since college

― DARING PRINCESS (DJP), Thursday, September 13, 2012 12:00 PM (11 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

yeah no kidding, even i have seen the dresden dolls and they're about as far away from "things i might like" as humanly possible

I think that being a truly great artist requires in some senses a certain amount of sheer bloody-mindedness (for lack of a better term) that can read like being-an-asshole. And women get criticised a lot harder for sheer-bloody-mindedness in a way that men are not quite so penalised, because that sheer-bloody-mindedness violates the ~always be nice~ directive that women are supposed to live under.

Are you saying that a male musician who did these same things would be judged differently? That doesn't ring true to me, although I admittedly can't think of examples on the spot right now.

Yeah, there might be a reason for that.

I note she's been vaguely glib about all this on Twitter so far aside from the one RT. This appears to be as close as self-consciousness as she'll allow herself:

https://twitter.com/amandapalmer/status/246281867626704897

I think she's allowing herself a great deal of self-consciousness about the roles of band and audience, maker and consumer.

http://amandapalmer.tumblr.com/post/31464255930/poetic-placement-of-the-day-the-new-york-times

poetic placement of the day: the new york times article about our volunteer corps of local musicians is next to an article about david byrne’s new book “HOW MUSIC WORKS”…in which he writes about me as an example of someone who creatively crowdsources things. bam. also fun to note: when david byrne guested with the grand theft orchestra a few months ago at the music hall of williamsburg, we paid him…in beer.

not enough facepalms in the world

you begin a sentence with, "isn't it interesting..." or some variation, you already lost me

Thank You For Sending Me A Pilsner

not enough facepalms in the world

― DARING PRINCESS (DJP), Thursday, September 13, 2012 12:44 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Amanda Facepalmer

For 36 she's doing a great job of seeming 18.

AFP for short.

Goddammit it's time ILX added "like" functionality to posts!

The string/horn sections she pulled together for the immediate post-Kickstarter mini-tour thing were all fans who opted in. They were asked to learn two songs I think, and turn up in time to soundcheck - and they looked like the happiest damn fans on earth onstage (as well as actually being really good).

― Background Zombie (CharlieNo4), Thursday, September 13, 2012 10:26 AM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

People who are whining about this are the assholes imo.

Not to say she's not an asshole, generally, I just don't think she's the asshole here.

Amanda Facepalmer OMG OMG OMG

"It gets better, and you win, and then you never have to worry about the effect on anyone of anything you say or do again, because you have WON"

yeah, this might be it? I feel like perhaps when Ms Palmer was young and fucked up - and I am suspicious of anyone who didn't feel a bit fucked up at that age - she developed such an army of other young, fucked-up people who would defend anything she did that she never really had to grow past this and develop some sort of self-awareness or "maybe I'd better not say this as it will sound horrible and potentially marginalise other people" instead of going "ah but I am a tortured artiste and very clever, see my legions of fans"

(I really go back and forth on her - I have never heard a full album past the Dresden Dolls' first, which had like 1.6 good songs, but hell if Girl Anachronism wasn't a perfect encapsulation of that time of being 18 and fucked-up and almost revelling in the self-pity and transgression of it, all while also knowing people revelling even more openly in it and swinging between "that girl is really annoying!" and "I hope things get better for that girl, she doesn't deserve to be in that place". Also I like to get drunk and watch the DDs' live cover of "Eisbär" on repeat, sometimes.)

Another thing to be grateful to Amanda Palmer for: accelerating Neil Gaiman's shark-jump moments to dispel any doubt in anyone still left thinking he might yet do something else interesting

Hurting, how would you feel if the overarching cultural opinion of the law profession is that people should just be satisfied by the joy the get from practicing it and asking to be paid for your services/expertise is presumptuous/self-serving? Furthermore, what would be your opinion of a law firm that, after soliciting donations from a large base of people to get itself established and raising more money than anyone thought possible, took on a large caseload and then sent out a message to other lawyers asking them to help out on a case or two in exchange for a beer?

That is exactly what is happening here.

hurting is a musician btw

As is DJP and Owen P and...

The thing that put me off Amanda Palmer completely was her goddamn enabling of Wayne Coyne to continue being an asshole. Like after he leaked that video with Erykah Badu and her sister without their permission and Erykah (completely justifiably) had the video pulled, Amanda jumped right in to redo Erykah (and her sister's) part. I mean, of course its 100% Palmer's prerogative to be willing to go naked in the video, but I just was put off by the whole way Coyne just erased Badu from the track like a giant "fuck you" to her for daring to be pissed off about the way he treated her. And I felt like Palmer really enabled that by jumping in so willingly.

Wait, what? Wayne Coyne leaked a naked video of Erykah Badu? WTF?

i know, but his opinion as a musician is valid too, no need for analogies.

xp

Wait, what? Wayne Coyne leaked a naked video of Erykah Badu? WTF?

Here and onwards. And onwards.

I just get a 404 from that.

Wait, what? Wayne Coyne leaked a naked video of Erykah Badu? WTF?

Erykah did a duet with the Flaming Lips on their collab album and then they "released" a very NSFW video for it with Erykah and her sister in a tub, getting liquid stuff splattered all over them (I use "them" because its always only one of them in the shots, afaik her sister did the actual nude shots). Anyway, turned out Coyne leaked it without her permission and a shitstorm blew up on Twitter.

or just see that link, lol

Wayne Coyne is clearly Amanda Palmer's guru in the way of "artists can't be assholes, silly".

(many xps) Well, I think it's OK as a one-off or even a short-tour-off if an artist recognises that they have fans with musical talents who have probably already learnt their songs, and if those fans want to volunteer to come onstage with little extra practising required and be paid nothing except being near their favourite band, or having people see them, or maybe a t-shirt and a CD from the merch desk and a bottle of beer from the rider (NB I have not seen this last suggested perk mentioned so I guess even that wasn't offered)

but for one thing the key words there are "want to volunteer", and also for an entire major tour it's a little suspect to ask people to work in their spare time for free, yes; especially when said fans have just given you eleven bazillion dollars on a Kickstarter project, one which significantly exceeded its funding goal and therefore you might think had some spare funds lying around

This any better?

Erykah Badu: C /D, S&D

Erykah did a duet with the Flaming Lips on their collab album and then they "released" a very NSFW video for it with Erykah and her sister in a tub, getting liquid stuff splattered all over them (I use "them" because its always only one of them in the shots, afaik her sister did the actual nude shots). Anyway, turned out Coyne leaked it without her permission and a shitstorm blew up on Twitter.

Just to add to this, a couple weeks back, The Flaming Lips released a new version of the video with Palmer in it instead of Badu.

Yeah, thats what I mentioned about about Palmer enabling Coyne to be an asshole.

People who are whining about this are the assholes imo.

I don't really have a clear opinion about the volunteer musicians issue tbh, especially if people are just playing on two songs, not an entire set, and considering that people are freely choosing to do this. Playing gigs for free pretty much seems to be a part of life for amateur musicians. The experience and networking opportunities may well turn out to be useful for players. I don't think it's necessarily a really great thing to do but I'm not sure whether it's an injustice or something that I could imagine protesting.

many xps I don't know about the legal field but certainly there are many corporations or organizations that offer unpaid internships, many of which strike me as more exploitative than this situation.

Hurting, how would you feel if the overarching cultural opinion of the law profession is that people should just be satisfied by the joy the get from practicing it and asking to be paid for your services/expertise is presumptuous/self-serving? Furthermore, what would be your opinion of a law firm that, after soliciting donations from a large base of people to get itself established and raising more money than anyone thought possible, took on a large caseload and then sent out a message to other lawyers asking them to help out on a case or two in exchange for a beer?

That is exactly what is happening here.

while i get what you are saying, this is actually not the greatest example, because lawyers are actually required by the aba to do pro bono work :)

i happen to think she is an entitled asshole of he worst kind though so i'm not disagreeing with you, and don't think that people that disagree are whining.

(xpPS I have no musical talent, though that doesn't stop me trying, and the one time I appeared onstage my payment was a bottle of beer from the rider which I immediately gave to a friend as I don't drink beer, and I still felt like a GOD for like 0.2 seconds until the soundguy decided that the venue-provided equipment I was plugged into was faulty and therefore my channel was getting killed, fuck off)

(sorry, this is not the spacecadet's decade-old livejournal thread, is it?)

i can see both sides (given that palmer has a very established fandom) but the kickstarter thing casts this in a COMPLETELY different light. you can't raise $1.2 mil and cry poor about $35K.

just going to put this here

xxp "There are worse things" is not a defense.