amanda palmer's open poem to jonathan chait (and other crimes)

in short, Great artists tend to be assholes, but assholes do not tend to be great artists.

I try to see her side of this - I have a friend who crowds the stage with on-the-spot audience volunteers to clap on this one song & he loves it & so do they & it's often as much of the audience as can fit on the stage; that's not my style, but if people are into it, who does it hurt - but paying musicians who play with me is extremely important to me and to the survival of the craft as craft. I know there's people who wanna flex some "in the digital age the craft belongs to everyone and is no longer a craft it's ~a way of life~" or something but really that is nonsense - specifying that you want musicians who can really play means you want people who've sacrificed to learn their craft to now sacrifice for the betterment of yours. Having said all that, confidential to my singer buds, the check's in the mail lol

i'm definitely not saying that her behavior was responsible for his suicide! and i don't know the timing of when she used the recording of him in her music, but if it was after his death and he didn't consent to it being used, that's just completely callous and gross.

also who fakes a suicide and leaves a recording device on!!?? like "lol PUNK'D! gotcha!!"

I am obviously not expressing myself well.

I think that being a truly great artist requires in some senses a certain amount of sheer bloody-mindedness (for lack of a better term) that can read like being-an-asshole. And women get criticised a lot harder for sheer-bloody-mindedness in a way that men are not quite so penalised, because that sheer-bloody-mindedness violates the ~always be nice~ directive that women are supposed to live under.

It's not that ~great artists~ get a "get out of being an arsehole free" (though lord knows that card gets handed to male artists like e.g. John Lennon an awful lot.) I think it's more that halo effect whereby if you believe someone to be a genius, you are more likely to call that sheer-bloody-mindedness an "artistic temperament" instead of just "being an asshole."

If I believed more in Amanda Palmer's genius (which I don't, given the art of hers that I've heard) I would be willing to wade into the argument more. But at the moment, I'm kind of more with Cis. I'm actually glad that she exists, and that there is a space for her, and obviously she means an awful lot to many people.

But there are many, many artists who are seriously distasteful human beings (hello Anton Newcombe?) and yet they get judged on their art and the quality thereof, not on the things they've put their partners through in the name of art or something.

There's an unfortunate feedback loop here too; my objections to Amanda Palmer began when she crashed the stage at a cabaret show friends/castmates of mine were doing in support of our production of "The Rise and Fall of the City of Mahagonny" and literally took over the stage from them, apparently to "sing the songs correctly" (quote may be misremembered), then ramped almost immediately up to 11 when I saw the Evelyn Evelyn stuff. Then I heard the music and didn't connect to it, but by that point it would have had to have been the most amazing music ever to surmount the barrier of ill will I'd already constructed towards her.

Her being an asshole probably wouldn't matter as much if her music was any good, but for me it's mediocre at best.

WCC otm, with a Christmas bonus for "the Courtney Love Clause".

jjj did play one Dresden Dolls song for me that I really liked but I have no idea what it was and no real desire to track it down

xp Is she "ableist" or just tactless, using a conceit in an abstract arty way without connecting it to real people in that situation? I'm wary of labelling someone a bigot based on one fairly strange situation. But I do think that when you're that visible on Twitter you get a lot of shit and probably get too defensive when it comes to valid criticism because you're used to fending off assholes. Personally I like her, I like her songwriting and I like the way she wrestles with her own exhibitionism but I don't give her a free pass.

Well the first I heard of her was back in Dresden Doll days, when she went to war with their label over them insisting that she lose some weight and reshoot a video because she had a (tiny) visible belly in one scene, and she basically mobilised her entire fanbase in this really inspiring and empowering (bleurgh hate that word) wave of body acceptance until they backed down, and shooting down the unrealistic expectations of womens' appearances in the music biz which just made me think YOU GO GIRL.

So I was predisposed to think that her intentions were in the right place, right up until the EvelynEvelyn thing - and it wasn't even doing the thing in the first place (which was a bit ick) but her reaction towards the criticisms, and basically using twitter to abuse the people with disabilities who had brought up the issue in the first place (who were actually fans!) which was just... um, you've changed.

Like, in the former case, the whole "Fuck you, this is my art" was totally and completely the sheer-bloody-minded right thing to do. And in the latter case, "Fuck you, this is my art" was, um, rong rong rong.

Like I said, it's complicated.

At the end of the day I see the creative act as being somewhat unassailable. That is: anybody who can write fifteen fantastic songs has pretty much assumed a eternally defensible position. Even situations where I've personally been specifically and unquestionably "fucked over" by a fellow musician, I have a persistently sympathetic attitude toward the person who at the end of the day has to pull inspiration out of thin air.

That said, you've got to write those fifteen fantastic songs to get that magic ticket, you know?

Hmm, I'm not really sure where I was going with that last post, I'm just gonna stop now. I'm trying to respond to "why do I accept asshole behaviour from a Courtney Love and not an Amanda Palmer" but I don't really know. I'd definitely be calling out Elvis Costello if he was pulling this shit

Because Courtney Love has written Pretty On The Inside, and Live Through This and Celebrity Skin and Amanda Palmer and Elvis Costello have not, is generally my response to those kinds of things.

But these things are relative, and subjective.

Elvis Costello had written fifteen fantastic songs by the time he'd written his first dozen songs, is my view. But I am more willing than a lot of you to separate out "is a great artist" and "is an asshole".

I know sometimes we don't agree on things WCC, but sometimes I really like you. And tossing EC in the same bucket as Amanda Palmer brought a smile to my face. You've been otm itt.

I've never heard anything Costello has written that has ever touched me in the same way that Love has. Love and her music and lyrics have explained some of the darker parts of me to myself, in ways I would never have understood had she not written those songs. I think that someone who has had that kind of personal effect on you, you become willing to put up with a lot of other negative crap, in the same way that if you have a friend who constantly winds you up e.g. by being late to everything, but has been there for you when other people haven't - you are willing to excuse the annoying stuff to get the good stuff.

I am certainly willing to accept that there are people, many people whose opinions I respect, for whom Palmer has had that kind of "explain your darkest bits to yourself" effect on.

There's also the thing where an artist you like does something horrible and actually acknowledges that it was horrible, such as the whole situation with Lol Tolhurst in The Cure and how abused he was by everyone as he was drowning in alcohol; everyone involved admitted what happened and everyone involved to my knowledge (I have at least read things from both Robert and Roger) said it was a really fucked up thing for them to do and they weren't proud of it. That at least shows some amount of self-realization and empathy for others; the subsequent reconciliation and Lol's performance with The Cure at the Sydney gig gives me a good amount of hope that they've worked through their issues and come out the other side.

Courtney Love did much the same type of "sorry for these instances where I was an asshole" thing in her most recent Behind the Music, which also made me like her more.

If Amanda Palmer has ever said "sorry for being an asshole", I've never seen it.

I don't know that Amanda Palmer has been around to get a Behind The Music, or even have her "sorry I was an asshole" moment. I think of her as really young?

she's 36!

not to cast judgment on what is young or old.

I guess what that means then, is that I am ~really~ old ha ha ha.

I've never heard anything Costello has written that has ever touched me in the same way that Love has. Love and her music and lyrics have explained some of the darker parts of me to myself, in ways I would never have understood had she not written those songs.

No, I totally agree - with Love and Costello switched. And that's fine - relative and subjective. I just don't need to like my favourite artists, generally.

(Okay okay, if I believed that Elvis's big fuck-up was heartfelt rather than random self-destruction, that would probably make a difference)

But then I guess there are artists who do intentionally blur the personal and the art - like, I appreciate what WCC and c sharp major are saying about Amanda Palmer being a living "It gets better", but the problem is that the entanglement persists, so it's "It gets better, and you win, and then you never have to worry about the effect on anyone of anything you say or do again, because you have WON".

Being in Boston, I feel like I've been heating about Amanda Palmer since college

or hearing, even

Just realised I was at the Corner Hotel gig in the YouTube clip above - don't remember anyone gasping in horror at the time.

Being in Boston, I feel like I've been heating about Amanda Palmer since college

― DARING PRINCESS (DJP), Thursday, September 13, 2012 12:00 PM (11 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

yeah no kidding, even i have seen the dresden dolls and they're about as far away from "things i might like" as humanly possible

I think that being a truly great artist requires in some senses a certain amount of sheer bloody-mindedness (for lack of a better term) that can read like being-an-asshole. And women get criticised a lot harder for sheer-bloody-mindedness in a way that men are not quite so penalised, because that sheer-bloody-mindedness violates the ~always be nice~ directive that women are supposed to live under.

Are you saying that a male musician who did these same things would be judged differently? That doesn't ring true to me, although I admittedly can't think of examples on the spot right now.

Yeah, there might be a reason for that.

I note she's been vaguely glib about all this on Twitter so far aside from the one RT. This appears to be as close as self-consciousness as she'll allow herself:

https://twitter.com/amandapalmer/status/246281867626704897

I think she's allowing herself a great deal of self-consciousness about the roles of band and audience, maker and consumer.

http://amandapalmer.tumblr.com/post/31464255930/poetic-placement-of-the-day-the-new-york-times

poetic placement of the day: the new york times article about our volunteer corps of local musicians is next to an article about david byrne’s new book “HOW MUSIC WORKS”…in which he writes about me as an example of someone who creatively crowdsources things. bam. also fun to note: when david byrne guested with the grand theft orchestra a few months ago at the music hall of williamsburg, we paid him…in beer.

not enough facepalms in the world

you begin a sentence with, "isn't it interesting..." or some variation, you already lost me

Thank You For Sending Me A Pilsner

not enough facepalms in the world

― DARING PRINCESS (DJP), Thursday, September 13, 2012 12:44 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Amanda Facepalmer

For 36 she's doing a great job of seeming 18.

AFP for short.

Goddammit it's time ILX added "like" functionality to posts!

The string/horn sections she pulled together for the immediate post-Kickstarter mini-tour thing were all fans who opted in. They were asked to learn two songs I think, and turn up in time to soundcheck - and they looked like the happiest damn fans on earth onstage (as well as actually being really good).

― Background Zombie (CharlieNo4), Thursday, September 13, 2012 10:26 AM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

People who are whining about this are the assholes imo.

Not to say she's not an asshole, generally, I just don't think she's the asshole here.

Amanda Facepalmer OMG OMG OMG

"It gets better, and you win, and then you never have to worry about the effect on anyone of anything you say or do again, because you have WON"

yeah, this might be it? I feel like perhaps when Ms Palmer was young and fucked up - and I am suspicious of anyone who didn't feel a bit fucked up at that age - she developed such an army of other young, fucked-up people who would defend anything she did that she never really had to grow past this and develop some sort of self-awareness or "maybe I'd better not say this as it will sound horrible and potentially marginalise other people" instead of going "ah but I am a tortured artiste and very clever, see my legions of fans"

(I really go back and forth on her - I have never heard a full album past the Dresden Dolls' first, which had like 1.6 good songs, but hell if Girl Anachronism wasn't a perfect encapsulation of that time of being 18 and fucked-up and almost revelling in the self-pity and transgression of it, all while also knowing people revelling even more openly in it and swinging between "that girl is really annoying!" and "I hope things get better for that girl, she doesn't deserve to be in that place". Also I like to get drunk and watch the DDs' live cover of "Eisbär" on repeat, sometimes.)

Another thing to be grateful to Amanda Palmer for: accelerating Neil Gaiman's shark-jump moments to dispel any doubt in anyone still left thinking he might yet do something else interesting

Hurting, how would you feel if the overarching cultural opinion of the law profession is that people should just be satisfied by the joy the get from practicing it and asking to be paid for your services/expertise is presumptuous/self-serving? Furthermore, what would be your opinion of a law firm that, after soliciting donations from a large base of people to get itself established and raising more money than anyone thought possible, took on a large caseload and then sent out a message to other lawyers asking them to help out on a case or two in exchange for a beer?

That is exactly what is happening here.

hurting is a musician btw

As is DJP and Owen P and...

The thing that put me off Amanda Palmer completely was her goddamn enabling of Wayne Coyne to continue being an asshole. Like after he leaked that video with Erykah Badu and her sister without their permission and Erykah (completely justifiably) had the video pulled, Amanda jumped right in to redo Erykah (and her sister's) part. I mean, of course its 100% Palmer's prerogative to be willing to go naked in the video, but I just was put off by the whole way Coyne just erased Badu from the track like a giant "fuck you" to her for daring to be pissed off about the way he treated her. And I felt like Palmer really enabled that by jumping in so willingly.

Wait, what? Wayne Coyne leaked a naked video of Erykah Badu? WTF?

i know, but his opinion as a musician is valid too, no need for analogies.

xp

Wait, what? Wayne Coyne leaked a naked video of Erykah Badu? WTF?

Here and onwards. And onwards.

the bit about having her future boyfriend (and his publicist) meet her in the park only for them to find what she was doing pretty cringe is something