amanda palmer's open poem to jonathan chait (and other crimes)

holy shit, is that for real

http://youtu.be/h57XWrFNGs8

5:10

this woman, holy shit

I hated this woman anyway for being a total shit to my friends when they were doing Weill cabaret, this is next level

ennh, she was 18 and the "gf fakes a suicide" -> "he commits suicide" connection doesn't ring true for me. It is so fucked up that she'd put that recording on an album, though, oh my god.

and christ, pay your musicians. Amateur vs. professional who the fuck cares. More like "I am blessed with a worshipful fanbase now let me exploit you for cheap labour"

haha Owen I think we're pretty much on the same page here with minor deviations

like... always?

he said here.

ennh, she was 18 and the "gf fakes a suicide" -> "he commits suicide" connection doesn't ring true for me. It is so fucked up that she'd put that recording on an album, though, oh my god

yeah i wasn't making the connection that he committed suicide because of her, it was more of an aside. but faking suicide is horribly abusive behavior, and using the recording on an album implies she has no remorse about it.

If she's doing a "let me bring out enthusiastic fans at each show to do a song or two" thing, then who cares

If she's doing a "let me fill out my band for the majority of my set with people I don't have to actually pay" thing, she should fuck off

― DARING PRINCESS (DJP), Thursday, September 13, 2012 2:18 PM (49 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Yeah, this is OTM. I think if one of my favourite bands put out a call for people to show up and play either a track they already know or jam out some psych a la Suzuki's Network, I'd jump at it and not expect payment. However, if it was "please learn my entire set, be present at a rehearsal, play for the entire show or at least when and where I expect you to" then I would find that a very different proposition indeed.

The string/horn sections she pulled together for the immediate post-Kickstarter mini-tour thing were all fans who opted in. They were asked to learn two songs I think, and turn up in time to soundcheck - and they looked like the happiest damn fans on earth onstage (as well as actually being really good).

i had never paid any attention to this person until this musician thing, which is shitty. but even shitter, she apparently was dating (pre-gaiman) someone who was a recovered drug addict and relapsed, and she faked a suicide attempt to show him how hurt she was by it, and recorded his reaction to finding her and thinking she had killed herself, and used it on an album. he later committed suicide. how is this person real?! that is stomach turning.

She's also ableist. I think she's an asshole.

You guys don't understand, she's an artist. You can't be an artist and an asshole at the same time, they're like matter / anti-matter.

(If I listen carefully, I can probably hear DJP's reaction to that from across the Atlantic)

I think a lot of the greatest artists have been complete and total assholes, and she's certainly living up to that. But women get given a harder time for ~not being nice~ and the level of assholehood required to be a ~great~ artist, so I try to cut female rock stars some slack on that count, i.e. The Courtney Love Clause.

The problem is, I've never heard any work of Amanda Palmer's that actually inspired me or blew me away in the way that I require ~great art~ to do. Which may well be my failure to appreciate it. So it's complicated.

Oy oy oy, that Evelyn Evelyn thing. I would have no problem if it was a Victoriana/Steampunk concept album about conjoined twins, really, but... positioning them in the contemporary world? Pretending that you rescued them? Giving *quite* such a distressing backstory to the record? DRESSING as them?

Yeah, that thing Nicole posted, that was the thing that really just crystalised a lot of the floating discomfort I'd been experiencing about her and her schtick. But, like I said, it's complicated.

but faking suicide is horribly abusive behavior, and using the recording on an album implies she has no remorse about it.

I've not knowingly heard an amanda palmer record but she reminds me so so so strongly of girls i used to know -- there can be this sense that making art around something shitty that you did is a way of working through it, the experience and your own behaviour? I mean, to me it is a terrible thing to have used that recording on an album that you release and get money for, but I can sense the edges of the logic that leads to it. Also i do not think her behaviour can be held responsible for his later suicide.

Like WCC says, it's complicated - because there've been these girls I knew who would have been so happy to grow up into Amanda Palmer, the very phenomenon of her existence is dear to me -- even when she does stuff like the Evelyn Evelyn project, which was frankly repulsive.

I think I'm probably misreading you, WCC - your first paragraph seems to suggest that there's a minimum level of assholehood required to be a great artists? But your second suggests that if she was a great artist, she'd get a reduction in effective assholehood?

in short, Great artists tend to be assholes, but assholes do not tend to be great artists.

I try to see her side of this - I have a friend who crowds the stage with on-the-spot audience volunteers to clap on this one song & he loves it & so do they & it's often as much of the audience as can fit on the stage; that's not my style, but if people are into it, who does it hurt - but paying musicians who play with me is extremely important to me and to the survival of the craft as craft. I know there's people who wanna flex some "in the digital age the craft belongs to everyone and is no longer a craft it's ~a way of life~" or something but really that is nonsense - specifying that you want musicians who can really play means you want people who've sacrificed to learn their craft to now sacrifice for the betterment of yours. Having said all that, confidential to my singer buds, the check's in the mail lol

i'm definitely not saying that her behavior was responsible for his suicide! and i don't know the timing of when she used the recording of him in her music, but if it was after his death and he didn't consent to it being used, that's just completely callous and gross.

also who fakes a suicide and leaves a recording device on!!?? like "lol PUNK'D! gotcha!!"

I am obviously not expressing myself well.

I think that being a truly great artist requires in some senses a certain amount of sheer bloody-mindedness (for lack of a better term) that can read like being-an-asshole. And women get criticised a lot harder for sheer-bloody-mindedness in a way that men are not quite so penalised, because that sheer-bloody-mindedness violates the ~always be nice~ directive that women are supposed to live under.

It's not that ~great artists~ get a "get out of being an arsehole free" (though lord knows that card gets handed to male artists like e.g. John Lennon an awful lot.) I think it's more that halo effect whereby if you believe someone to be a genius, you are more likely to call that sheer-bloody-mindedness an "artistic temperament" instead of just "being an asshole."

If I believed more in Amanda Palmer's genius (which I don't, given the art of hers that I've heard) I would be willing to wade into the argument more. But at the moment, I'm kind of more with Cis. I'm actually glad that she exists, and that there is a space for her, and obviously she means an awful lot to many people.

But there are many, many artists who are seriously distasteful human beings (hello Anton Newcombe?) and yet they get judged on their art and the quality thereof, not on the things they've put their partners through in the name of art or something.

There's an unfortunate feedback loop here too; my objections to Amanda Palmer began when she crashed the stage at a cabaret show friends/castmates of mine were doing in support of our production of "The Rise and Fall of the City of Mahagonny" and literally took over the stage from them, apparently to "sing the songs correctly" (quote may be misremembered), then ramped almost immediately up to 11 when I saw the Evelyn Evelyn stuff. Then I heard the music and didn't connect to it, but by that point it would have had to have been the most amazing music ever to surmount the barrier of ill will I'd already constructed towards her.

Her being an asshole probably wouldn't matter as much if her music was any good, but for me it's mediocre at best.

WCC otm, with a Christmas bonus for "the Courtney Love Clause".

jjj did play one Dresden Dolls song for me that I really liked but I have no idea what it was and no real desire to track it down

xp Is she "ableist" or just tactless, using a conceit in an abstract arty way without connecting it to real people in that situation? I'm wary of labelling someone a bigot based on one fairly strange situation. But I do think that when you're that visible on Twitter you get a lot of shit and probably get too defensive when it comes to valid criticism because you're used to fending off assholes. Personally I like her, I like her songwriting and I like the way she wrestles with her own exhibitionism but I don't give her a free pass.

Well the first I heard of her was back in Dresden Doll days, when she went to war with their label over them insisting that she lose some weight and reshoot a video because she had a (tiny) visible belly in one scene, and she basically mobilised her entire fanbase in this really inspiring and empowering (bleurgh hate that word) wave of body acceptance until they backed down, and shooting down the unrealistic expectations of womens' appearances in the music biz which just made me think YOU GO GIRL.

So I was predisposed to think that her intentions were in the right place, right up until the EvelynEvelyn thing - and it wasn't even doing the thing in the first place (which was a bit ick) but her reaction towards the criticisms, and basically using twitter to abuse the people with disabilities who had brought up the issue in the first place (who were actually fans!) which was just... um, you've changed.

Like, in the former case, the whole "Fuck you, this is my art" was totally and completely the sheer-bloody-minded right thing to do. And in the latter case, "Fuck you, this is my art" was, um, rong rong rong.

Like I said, it's complicated.

At the end of the day I see the creative act as being somewhat unassailable. That is: anybody who can write fifteen fantastic songs has pretty much assumed a eternally defensible position. Even situations where I've personally been specifically and unquestionably "fucked over" by a fellow musician, I have a persistently sympathetic attitude toward the person who at the end of the day has to pull inspiration out of thin air.

That said, you've got to write those fifteen fantastic songs to get that magic ticket, you know?

Hmm, I'm not really sure where I was going with that last post, I'm just gonna stop now. I'm trying to respond to "why do I accept asshole behaviour from a Courtney Love and not an Amanda Palmer" but I don't really know. I'd definitely be calling out Elvis Costello if he was pulling this shit

Because Courtney Love has written Pretty On The Inside, and Live Through This and Celebrity Skin and Amanda Palmer and Elvis Costello have not, is generally my response to those kinds of things.

But these things are relative, and subjective.

Elvis Costello had written fifteen fantastic songs by the time he'd written his first dozen songs, is my view. But I am more willing than a lot of you to separate out "is a great artist" and "is an asshole".

I know sometimes we don't agree on things WCC, but sometimes I really like you. And tossing EC in the same bucket as Amanda Palmer brought a smile to my face. You've been otm itt.

I've never heard anything Costello has written that has ever touched me in the same way that Love has. Love and her music and lyrics have explained some of the darker parts of me to myself, in ways I would never have understood had she not written those songs. I think that someone who has had that kind of personal effect on you, you become willing to put up with a lot of other negative crap, in the same way that if you have a friend who constantly winds you up e.g. by being late to everything, but has been there for you when other people haven't - you are willing to excuse the annoying stuff to get the good stuff.

I am certainly willing to accept that there are people, many people whose opinions I respect, for whom Palmer has had that kind of "explain your darkest bits to yourself" effect on.

There's also the thing where an artist you like does something horrible and actually acknowledges that it was horrible, such as the whole situation with Lol Tolhurst in The Cure and how abused he was by everyone as he was drowning in alcohol; everyone involved admitted what happened and everyone involved to my knowledge (I have at least read things from both Robert and Roger) said it was a really fucked up thing for them to do and they weren't proud of it. That at least shows some amount of self-realization and empathy for others; the subsequent reconciliation and Lol's performance with The Cure at the Sydney gig gives me a good amount of hope that they've worked through their issues and come out the other side.

Courtney Love did much the same type of "sorry for these instances where I was an asshole" thing in her most recent Behind the Music, which also made me like her more.

If Amanda Palmer has ever said "sorry for being an asshole", I've never seen it.

I don't know that Amanda Palmer has been around to get a Behind The Music, or even have her "sorry I was an asshole" moment. I think of her as really young?

she's 36!

not to cast judgment on what is young or old.

I guess what that means then, is that I am ~really~ old ha ha ha.

I've never heard anything Costello has written that has ever touched me in the same way that Love has. Love and her music and lyrics have explained some of the darker parts of me to myself, in ways I would never have understood had she not written those songs.

No, I totally agree - with Love and Costello switched. And that's fine - relative and subjective. I just don't need to like my favourite artists, generally.

(Okay okay, if I believed that Elvis's big fuck-up was heartfelt rather than random self-destruction, that would probably make a difference)

But then I guess there are artists who do intentionally blur the personal and the art - like, I appreciate what WCC and c sharp major are saying about Amanda Palmer being a living "It gets better", but the problem is that the entanglement persists, so it's "It gets better, and you win, and then you never have to worry about the effect on anyone of anything you say or do again, because you have WON".

Being in Boston, I feel like I've been heating about Amanda Palmer since college

or hearing, even

Just realised I was at the Corner Hotel gig in the YouTube clip above - don't remember anyone gasping in horror at the time.

Being in Boston, I feel like I've been heating about Amanda Palmer since college

― DARING PRINCESS (DJP), Thursday, September 13, 2012 12:00 PM (11 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

yeah no kidding, even i have seen the dresden dolls and they're about as far away from "things i might like" as humanly possible

I think that being a truly great artist requires in some senses a certain amount of sheer bloody-mindedness (for lack of a better term) that can read like being-an-asshole. And women get criticised a lot harder for sheer-bloody-mindedness in a way that men are not quite so penalised, because that sheer-bloody-mindedness violates the ~always be nice~ directive that women are supposed to live under.

Are you saying that a male musician who did these same things would be judged differently? That doesn't ring true to me, although I admittedly can't think of examples on the spot right now.

Yeah, there might be a reason for that.

I note she's been vaguely glib about all this on Twitter so far aside from the one RT. This appears to be as close as self-consciousness as she'll allow herself:

https://twitter.com/amandapalmer/status/246281867626704897

I think she's allowing herself a great deal of self-consciousness about the roles of band and audience, maker and consumer.

http://amandapalmer.tumblr.com/post/31464255930/poetic-placement-of-the-day-the-new-york-times

poetic placement of the day: the new york times article about our volunteer corps of local musicians is next to an article about david byrne’s new book “HOW MUSIC WORKS”…in which he writes about me as an example of someone who creatively crowdsources things. bam. also fun to note: when david byrne guested with the grand theft orchestra a few months ago at the music hall of williamsburg, we paid him…in beer.

All time excelsior

hall of fame shit

Actual spit take

Holy shit I cackled like a witch at that.

Lmao

https://www.facebook.com/100045146024077/posts/pfbid02Z9jqz9XfMPDkdTctzDtFBNoE8Hqbtu2WZQAuwdi5TUrFjYSujiogC9YTwDXBFFPel/?mibextid=cr9u03

Regret to inform you all that she took a powerful lesson from Sinead O'Connor as well - it's the same lesson as always: never wonder "Am I the asshole?"

Am I not your asshole?

when every lens is a mirror

i’m so tired of rolling my eyes at her

i enjoyed the subtle but great running joke about amanda palmer on Deadloch (Australian murder comedy/satire series on Amazon)

is this post available to schadenreade somewhere publicly?

it didn't work on mobile but did on desktop (although I can imagine you balked at the URL!)

As I sit here with tears in my eyes, I find my complicated feelings about chat GPT getting even more complicated.
🤖🏳️‍⚧️♥️🤷🏻‍♀️
https://i.imgur.com/znvUQWH.jpg

It's been so long since whatever Amanda Palmer did to make so many people (including me) dislike her that I've got to admit ... I don't remember what it was. But I saw her years ago with the Dresden Dolls, and fair's fair, the band was good. They reunited/played at Riot Fest yesterday, and while I wasn't watching them, specifically, I caught a bit of their set, and ... it was pretty good again? They brought out Melissa Auf der Maur for a Beastie Boys cover:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzrJW-8CCHE

yeah they are touring. I hate them. I love Melissa auf der Mar though.

I don't even think that highly of the Beastie Boys tbh but no I am not clicking on that, are you fucking crazy

I will not encourage such behaviour

happy new year!

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2024/jan/03/three-things-with-amanda-palmer-putting-a-cold-stone-around-my-warm-neck-i-remember-what-i-endured

He also used to tell me: “Say less.”

Maybe this is the New Year New Me but that piece isn't actually that bad. Excluding the stick thing.

the bit about having her future boyfriend (and his publicist) meet her in the park only for them to find what she was doing pretty cringe is something