Magic: The Gathering C/D

yeah i think those are both better than urza's and masques but worse than anything invasion-onwards, at least in terms of design and balance

actually i'd probably rather play tempest limited than zendikar or AVR

any set where a third of the white commons are circle of protections is lame

I have a habit of collecting unopened boxes - when I win prizes for drafts I used to save them for "home drafting", but I'd never do that, so I'd just save up to 36 and trade 'em all in for a box, hoping it would have some trade value later. Today the store owner told me that for the final set of this block he wanted to do a prerelease that included Ravnica/Guildpact/Dissension and that he was willing to buy my boxes (I have one of each). Combined price is over a grand right now! How did this happen!? I'm thinking of just saying 800 flat (as this is already a windfall for me) but when did these actually begin to accumulate value? The Rav box is 400 - even if shocks weren't coming back, it's near impossible to pull that much value out of 36 packs. You'd need 2 Dark Confidants and like 10 shocks to get close.

I'd say it's due to being one of the most universally acclaimed limited formats of all time, plus age and being out of print, plus nostalgia from Return to Ravnica.

Yeah, it must be all about draft value. Several years ago, I went on a small buying spree to catch up on the years of sets I had skipped, and a starter box of Invasion was a sizable amount less per card than a booster box. Makes sense when you think about it.

Ajani, Caller of the Pride 1.40
Primordial Hydra 1.49
Jace, Memory Adept 1.54
Chandra, the Firebrand 1.56
Garruk, Primal Hunter 1.60
Sublime Archangel 1.67
Odric, Master Tactician 1.69
Thragtusk 1.70
Liliana of the Dark Realms 1.73
Thundermaw Hellkite 1.78
Captain of the Watch 1.82
Nefarox, Overlord of Grixis 1.82
Sphinx of Uthuun 1.86
Akroma's Memorial 1.88
Stuffy Doll 1.90
Staff of Nin 1.92
Elderscale Wurm 2.01
Talrand, Sky Summoner 2.11
Krenko, Mob Boss 2.13
Serra Avenger 2.17
Silklash Spider 2.18
Yeva, Nature's Herald 2.19
Xathrid Gorgon 2.23
Rancor 2.27
Clone 2.36
Cathedral of War 2.38
Oblivion Ring 2.38
Intrepid Hero 2.40
Vampire Nighthawk 2.41
Sands of Delirium 2.54
Disciple of Bolas 2.54
Vampire Nocturnus 2.60
Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker 2.60
Predatory Rampage 2.64
Shimian Specter 2.64
Mutilate 2.70
Serra Angel 2.75
Magmaquake 2.89
Firewing Phoenix 2.90
Stormtide Leviathan 2.90
Rhox Faithmender 2.92
Talrand's Invocation 2.94
Serra Avatar 2.97
Quirion Dryad 2.97
Slumbering Dragon 2.98
Void Stalker 2.99
Knight of Glory 3.01
Gilded Lotus 3.17
Murder 3.19
Trading Post 3.19
Knight of Infamy 3.31
Garruk's Packleader 3.59
Aven Squire 3.60
Elvish Archdruid 3.60
Flames of the Firebrand 3.63
Pacifism 3.75
Sleep 3.77
Planar Cleansing 3.87
Attended Knight 3.92
Redirect 3.94
Acidic Slime 4.02
Hamletback Goliath 4.03
Phylactery Lich 4.08
Searing Spear 4.12
Sentinel Spider 4.12
Reverberate 4.17
Arctic Aven 4.22
Fog Bank 4.26
Volcanic Geyser 4.35
Crusader of Odric 4.42
Switcheroo 4.46
Duskdale Wurm 4.51
Hellion Crucible 4.53
Public Execution 4.53
Spelltwine 4.73
Arbor Elf 4.73
Master of the Pearl Trident 4.75
Healer of the Pride 4.78
Deadly Recluse 4.78
Rise from the Grave 4.80
Roaring Primadox 4.83
Fervor 4.83
Giant Scorpion 4.95
Faith's Reward 4.96
Elvish Visionary 4.98
Duskmantle Prowler 5.00
Angelic Benediction 5.12
Arms Dealer 5.18
War Priest of Thune 5.35
Augur of Bolas 5.38
Divination 5.38
Glacial Fortress 5.49
Jace's Phantasm 5.51
Drowned Catacomb 5.54
Dragonskull Summit 5.60
Rootbound Crag 5.64
Ajani's Sunstriker 5.65
Servant of Nefarox 5.69
Primal Huntbeast 5.70
Mwonvuli Beast Tracker 5.71
Wind Drake 5.73
Sunpetal Grove 5.75
Harbor Bandit 5.75
Guardians of Akrasa 5.76
Divine Verdict 5.78
Bloodhunter Bat 5.80
Welkin Tern 5.82
Captain's Call 5.83
Bladetusk Boar 5.83
Chronomaton 5.86
Duty-Bound Dead 5.93
Primal Clay 5.96
Ring of Xathrid 6.12
Furnace Whelp 6.17
Essence Scatter 6.20
Griffin Protector 6.24
Prized Elephant 6.25
Elixir of Immortality 6.25
Faerie Invaders 6.29
Krenko's Command 6.30
Mark of Mutiny 6.30
Scroll Thief 6.35
Cower in Fear 6.38
Ring of Thune 6.39
Flinthoof Boar 6.40
Sign in Blood 6.47
Farseek 6.47
Turn to Slag 6.48
Rewind 6.49
Tormented Soul 6.50
Evolving Wilds 6.50
Essence Drain 6.51
Goblin Arsonist 6.57
Ring of Kalonia 6.58
Kitesail 6.70
Timberpack Wolf 6.76
Unsummon 6.83
Negate 6.87
Prey Upon 6.90
Ravenous Rats 6.93
Centaur Courser 6.99
Mind Rot 7.01
Ring of Evos Isle 7.02
Duress 7.03
Diabolic Revelation 7.07
Ring of Valkas 7.13
Archaeomancer 7.26
Titanic Growth 7.30
Crimson Muckwader 7.35
Mogg Flunkies 7.37
Mindclaw Shaman 7.39
Plummet 7.43
Spiked Baloth 7.43
Safe Passage 7.45
Mind Sculpt 7.45
Walking Corpse 7.46
Encrust 7.47
Bloodthrone Vampire 7.61
Yeva's Forcemage 7.63
Silvercoat Lion 7.77
Fungal Sprouting 7.89
Dark Favor 8.02
Mark of the Vampire 8.08
Divine Favor 8.15
Worldfire 8.16
Fog 8.20
Courtly Provocateur 8.27
Warclamp Mastiff 8.39
Vedalken Entrancer 8.43
Harbor Serpent 8.57
Omniscience 8.57
Volcanic Strength 8.63
Liliana's Shade 8.64
Bond Beetle 8.65
Kraken Hatchling 8.67
Disentomb 8.69
Chandra's Fury 8.70
Vastwood Gorger 8.70
Naturalize 8.73
Canyon Minotaur 8.76
Battleflight Eagle 8.86
Tricks of the Trade 8.91
Jayemdae Tome 8.94
Blood Reckoning 9.05
War Falcon 9.08
Phyrexian Hulk 9.10
Downpour 9.12
Rain of Blades 9.16
Dragon Hatchling 9.23
Crippling Blight 9.33
Torch Fiend 9.38
Vile Rebirth 9.40
Revive 9.40
Fire Elemental 9.41
Rummaging Goblin 9.44
Boundless Realms 9.46
Veilborn Ghoul 9.54
Ranger's Path 9.80
Ground Seal 9.86
Touch of the Eternal 9.89
Gem of Becoming 9.93
Reckless Brute 10.00
Show of Valor 10.04
Watercourser 10.11
Cleaver Riot 10.11
Index 10.13
Wall of Fire 10.24
Reliquary Tower 10.25
Wit's End 10.26
Goblin Battle Jester 10.27
Glorious Charge 10.35
Merfolk of the Pearl Trident 10.45
Zombie Goliath 10.52
Kindled Fury 10.79
Trumpet Blast 10.86
Door to Nothingness 11.03
Guardian Lions 11.06
Pillarfield Ox 11.07
Tormod's Crypt 11.10
Wild Guess 11.13
Angel's Mercy 11.21
Erase 11.21
Serpent's Gift 11.24
Hydrosurge 11.59
Smelt 11.99
Bountiful Harvest 12.03
Battle of Wits 12.10
Craterize 12.10
Clock of Omens 12.58
Forest 12.85
Plains 12.89
Mountain 13.01
Island 13.20
Swamp 13.65

that's an 'average pick #' from the draft sim site I found and have been playing around w/ today. it seems fairly accurate in the 'you'd almost always pick the highest ranked card of your color/s' way. what cards on this list do you guys disagree most w/, ranking-wise?

theres a lot of raredrafting bias on that it seems - for example in black liliana is worse than xathrid gorgon, nefarox, mutilate, and vampire nighthawk

staff of nin should be #1 on the list without considering card prices because its a top 5 card in the set and is colorless

this is really tough to judge, as $ concerns obviously cloud some of this (for example Master of the Pearl Trident being at above 5 when it's basically useless in Limited)

anyway, I think Arms Dealer is ranked way too low (it's a 1st-2nd pick IMO), Deadly Recluse is also something you want to snap up quick, though there are a lot of good green commons.

also feel that Wind Drake is too high, War Falcon too low

yeah i'd actually say most of these are pretty off - just noticed watercourser at 10.11 while wind drake is well into the top half. i take the courser over wind drake in almost every blue deck

Clone seems way overrated too... it's a flexible card that would go in any deck but above Cathedral of War and Oblivion Ring?

but while actually using the site (http://tappedout.net/mtg-draft-simulator) the rankings (which they put under the cards) seem to fit fairly well w/ my choices

my understnading about those sites is that the rankings are generated from the users, and people who are using practice draft sims are generally not going to be the strongest drafters

plus M13 is way more of a synergy set than a goodstuff set unlike previous core sets - there's more of a distinct divide between cards for control and beatdown decks and therefore something like Welkin Tern can be a top 3 pick or an unplayable depending on what you're trying to do

I'd pick Sleep over like 60% of the cards above it, most of which are really not that great in Limited (Vampire Nocturnus seems like a good early pick until you realize that it's a vanilla 3/3 most of the time and there is only a couple of Vampires in the set)

other rankings I'm questioning, tell me yr thoughts:

Stormtide Leviathan 2.90
Gilded Lotus 3.17
Sleep 3.77
Chronomaton 5.86
Duty-Bound Dead 5.93
Krenko's Command 6.30
Tormented Soul 6.50
Prey Upon 6.90
Encrust 7.47
Courtly Provocateur 8.27

xp

Went 2-1 last night in another innistrad/dark ascension draft with red/green werewolves. Not sure I really get the love for these sets versus the general disinterest in m13 at my local store.

ha really, is sleep that good? when I've played against it all it does is buy someone some time. I guess it could be a win in the right circumstance, but cards that depend on circumstance aren't as good as cards that are always gonna be useful.

(the 5+s in that I think are underrated)

Stormtide - actually don't really have a problem with this, it's a big game-ending bomb and I don't know if there are any blue commons I'd take over it. Also it stops all non-flyers from attacking so like Elderscale it kind of protects you too. But I've never been good at evaluating dumb 8 mana rares. Wouldn't take it over Sleep or Talrand's Invocation though

Gilded Lotus - pretty much unplayable, and not even really worth money anymore either, don't get this at all

Sleep - definitely a top 3 blue card, should be higher

Chronomation - as an artifact I'd think it would be higher. Better than most commons so I find it hard to imagine that most packs have 5 cards better than it that happened to fit into whatever colors

Duty-Bound - seems about right, the exalted decks I build are always heavier White (I like War Falcon here)

Krenko's - again, seems right, maybe should be lower, I'm only glad to play this card when I have Arms Dealer or Krenko. Having multiple 1/1's kinda sucks in this format thanks to Cower in Fear and Chandra's Fury. Captains Call isn't very good either but it at least plays nice with other white cards.

Tormented Soul - seems okay, for some black decks this is like a 3rd pick, other black decks may not want it at all

Prey Upon - yeah, this is much better than Tormented Soul, I don't understand why this card comes around so late

Encrust - it's never as good as it looks sadly, still a solid card, I'd take it as a 7th pick

Provocateur - another card that seems better than it actually is...I've had success with it in Green/Blue though. In general it's harder to find good opportunities to use this than you might think.

Sleep definitely is that good - if you're behind, it buys you 2 turns, if you're ahead, it can be an auto-win. I understand taking Invocation over it because that card is really always useful, while Sleep isn't the kind of card you want in your opening hand. But every time I've cast it, it's been a bomb.

duty-bound to me seems like the best one drop around, but maybe I'm overrating it due to how many wins it's gotten me.

more

Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker 2.60 is this even playable p1p1?
Primal Clay 5.96 can fit in p much every deck?
Fervor 4.83 overrated even as a 5th pick?

I think Chronomaton is a better one drop - Duty Bound is probably one of the best but one-drops generally aren't very good in Limited. I'm sure it's good in B/anything but in general my exalted decks always skew heavy white.

On the other three there, I've tried and failed to make Bolas ever work, so yeah. For Clay, 6th seems alright...it fits into any deck yes but you're either overpaying for Centaur Corsair or you are for Wind Drake, and the Wall option isn't exactly earth-shattering either. I pick 'em up and I'm okay playing them but in general it's not very good. Fervor I've never seen played period so I can't really say, my guess is it's only good if you don't have 3 drops

the one that really confuses me is this - Scorpion is a top black common, outside of Murder obviously

Rise from the Grave 4.80
Giant Scorpion 4.95

the rares really skew this in a weird way. So many basically unplayable rares like Faith's Reward, Hamletback, Phylatchery Lich, etc. are being pegged as 4th-5th picks

hamletback seems playable imo. lich I would play if I was running 66%+ black w/ 4+ artifacts.

i dunno how many drafts will have even one deck that fits that description. outside of some uncommons it's tough to wind up with 4 playable artifacts

Hamletback has always been disappointing. Gets shut down by a lot, costs too much in a color that really tries to be fast, and it's in a set with a lot of common token producers. I've played it and I've seen it balloon up to like a 20/20 or so but it never wins me any games the way a Stormtide would. I usually side it out.

hamletback is terrible its probably the second worst red rare tbh. its basically 7 mana to do nothing

bolas is a p sweet p1p1 since you can definitely build around it and its certainly a huge bomb - ive drafted bolas 4 times and the only time i didnt do well was when i was passed him p2p2 and had been drafting a much more aggressive red/black deck built around arms dealer and even then i managed to go 2-2 in matches and like 5-4 in games.

ive made fervor work in a nearly mono-red g/r aggro deck but it was still a terrible option tbh and i probably shouldnt have played it.

i dont think sleep is very good and i really liked u/x tempo decks in M13. i guess i just agree w/the common wisdom that achieves too little when you're behind and doesn't do enough when you're ahead esp because my blue decks tend not to have that much trouble getting through as is.

yeah I guess for 7 mana you want more than 'be a really big creature'

you got time to practice draft? prob the only opportunity I'll have to steal gf's comp this week.

I got jace, talrand and his invocation, quirion, sands and 3 mind sculpts in a fake draft

I want to play that deck :(

the problem I always have w/ Bolas is it's 3 colors. I like splashing a color and playing Gem of Becoming but that's hard to pull off.

I dunno why you guys are having such bad experiences w/ Sleep. If you're going flying kill it stalls a couple turns so you can win the race, if you've got ground creatures they're all basically unblockable for two turns.

xp that reminds me of a draft I did where a guy went Turn 2 Mind Sculpt, Turn 3 Mind Sculpt, Turn 4 double Mind Sculpt. I was blown away.

my desire to play a mill deck is so strong that I am gonna inevitably draft a shitty blue deck w/ two mind sculpts irl

mind sculpt decks are so bad, i have lost with a 'nut draw' of t2 mind sculpt, t3 mind sculpt, t4 archaeomancer and it wasn't particularly close. you need like 5+ for it to work

The thing is the two best mill cards are Sands and Jace and they don't really need any support. Mill decks in Limited are always flukes - nobody takes the key common, whatever it is, you just need a lot of them to be opened for it to work, so you're really going against odds. Curse of the Bloody Tome would only work if you got like, six of them; you get a 1 in 8 chance of pulling one in each pack, so even if you get every single one at the table, you likely won't have enough.

you got time to practice draft? prob the only opportunity I'll have to steal gf's comp this week.

sorry in the middle of laundry and then im going out

I dunno why you guys are having such bad experiences w/ Sleep.

ive only had one game where it was actively bad and even then i bought me at least an extra draw step, its more that i rarely want one and so consequently tend not to draft it. i like p much every blue uncommon except courtly over it and there are at least two blue commons - unsummon and tern - that i take over it

yeah I have to go to parties w/ grad students tonight, it's tragic I would much rather keep pretend drafting and drink at home

the only uncommon I'd take over it is Talrand's Invocation, I dunno maybe I've just won so many unwinnable games with that card that I'm overvaluing it? but taking it over Unsummon seems just wrong.

you'd take it over fog bank?

absolutely

sleep is for beatdown decks that aren't heavy on fliers, which usually means UG or maybe UR if you have a lot of flunkies etc. it's decent in other situations but not amazing

i guess its also a way for your welkin terns to race centaur coursers in a fliers deck

it just seems too context dependent to be a sure thing early pick

like you're never gonna be bummed about drawing fog bank or talrand's in your first 7

Yeah and I do admit. Talrand's better b/c you always want that, Fog Bank sometimes just isn't relevant for a while but you can at least fit it as your 2-drop. Sleep I like because it turns a lot of losing situations into surprise wins when you're totally outclassed on the board and gives you two extra turns to race in a flyer deck (I also like Downpour more than most). That said I never had to choose between those three uncommons but I do think all three are better than any of blue's commons.

like I had one game where I had a Welkin Tern, two Attended Knights w/ Soldier tokens, and maybe one other guy out while my opponent was playing Deadly Recluses and big green dudes, Sleep can totally win you a game like that, that you couldn't win otherwise

yeah but I think you're putting too much weight on those miracle games and not enough weight on the many other times when it was just another card in your hand

perhaps - but it always seems to be a card I wish I had/hoped my opponent didn't

anyway, what do you guys think about Mwonvuli Beast Tracker? I've been quite underwhelmed with it

i only take it if i have silklash spider, vampire nighthawk, or xathrid gorgon. in my experience the common spiders and slimes aren't reason enough to play it over a better creature

I loved Sleep in M10 and M11, but something about this format made it worse. Control decks seem more viable in this set and it's terrible for them, basically just Fog. And in an aggressive deck, I've sometimes found myself trading off creatures and losing them to removal, in which case Sleep is a horrible topdeck. Still a fairly high pick for blue, but not for every deck.

frogbs - Sleep buys you one turn if you use it defensively or if you have flyers and are racing ground durdles, not two turns. It's good if you have a couple of 3/3s that wouldn't ordinarily get through and you can suddenly represent 10+ damage out of nowhere, but in almost every other situation it's a four-mana fog. The upside is good enough that I agree I would take it over most (all?) blue commons, but I'm not sure it's better than Fog Bank or Switcheroo. If I took it early in pack one I'd only be about 70% to even end up maindecking it, since so many blue decks end up pretty controllish.