Pazz & Jop 2008

Oh, and this:

the implication that just because VW have listened to a couple of African records ... they are automatically given credit for rhythmic innovation

^^ I do not think this is why people think of that album as rhythmically interesting! It is not just "they have jacked a rhythm from a King Sunny Ade record = they are brilliant" -- it's that the actual way they write and play songs involves pretty deft handling of rhythm. (I mean this in about the same way you'd say they were good at handling melodies -- meaning not that they're innovative or new, but that they deal with the stuff well and do entertaining things with it!)

there's rock and there's rock. there's Zep and Can and the Heads, and then there's R.E.M. and all the suffocating indie scum they spawned (har, j/k there).

ok i actually agree w/ you though to some degree -- more because ive noticed a lot of times 'critics' (i guess im thinking more, uh, bloggers, or random ppl i hear at reckless talking about how great pop rap is) shortchange/misunderstand what IS interesting about a rap song by short-cutting their way to "rhythmically crazy" or something like that -- that in an effort to prop up a song you end up w/ an inaccurate caricature

anywayz while i recognize the trend you're describing i dont think defending simon here is a good time to come out w/ that point just because his sentence just seems like one in a long line of derogatitis to me --

and incidently i said 'a few hokey african rhythms' in a definite dishonest attempt to troll/be provocative rather than suggest rock music cant be rhythmically interesting

no argument there.

xp

and again to be clear im not shitting on VW or arguing down their worth, ive heard their stuff and it sounded perfectly fine to me -- but this hierarchical comparative stuff is just awful criticism imo

kinda surprised to hear Vampire Weekend's drummer referred to as "deft."

though maybe people hear tricky indie where i hear clumsy police

yeah their drummer is not all that. good band tho, good record, and i liked SR's defense of it. higher education has always been the elephant in the living room of indie rock; it seemed to me like a good & immediately legible idea to launch into that, on a formal/conceptual level. i was genuinely baffled to see critics of vampire weekend's age (i assume) launching into a retread of the paul simon wars, like, that's the point of this record, ppl?

xp I think you're kind of arguing against a strawman here. Arguing that they make deft use of rhythm in their songs and arguing that they are super-tight rhythmically as players (the latter of which no one here has done) are two different things.

i dunno how you make deft use of rhythm with a shitty drummer but ok if you say so.

other instruments play in rhythm too, interestingly enough

maybe they should fire him so I can focus on the part that deftly uses rhythm

I don't mind the drumming on their record. Certainly no powerhouse and occasionally a tiny bit sloppy, sure, but it works.

Haha croupier you are totally proving my point here by acting like rhythmic interest has to do with how good a drummer is

i didn't even notice they had a drummer the half dozen or so times i listened to 'em.

Can I just say that thank god this is an argument over something other than whether they really mean their boat shoes?

croupier you are totally proving my point here by acting like rhythmic interest has to do with how good a drummer is

I didn't say their rhythms weren't "interesting." I questioned the idea that their rhythms were "deftly handled."

Oh c'mon, dude, let's not do a whole "I know you know how to read" thing. I said:

the actual way they write and play songs involves pretty deft handling of rhythm. (I mean this in about the same way you'd say they were good at handling melodies -- meaning not that they're innovative or new, but that they deal with the stuff well and do entertaining things with it!)

good at handling melodies doesn't always mean the singer has a good voice; good at handling rhythm doesn't always mean the drummer is a virtuoso -- we are talking about elements of music and whether bands are good at dealing with them, whether or not they employ those elements of music in ways that seem effective and interesting and thought-through

I'm not saying the drummer has to be a virtuoso, but if the drummer has a hard time keeping a beat you'd think it would make their "deft" ability to "deal with rhythm well" a pretty theoretical pleasure - one I'd like to see elaborated on beyond "they deftly handle rhythm and by that I mean they deal with it well," esp if you're going to cluck that they don't merely jack a couple riffs from afropop or whatever.

boy, i went back (again) to that vampire weekend record, specifically after reading reynolds' thing and tried (again) to find anything interesting or engaging in it, and failed (again). i don't think their rhythms are "interesting," and i think it's weirdly patronizing to pretend that they are just because they (some of them) are omg-african. your average '70s boogie-rock album has way more "interesting rhythms" than the vampire weekend record, if by interesting we mean rhythmically engaging. i do think the relationship of modern indie to rhythm is an interesting subject (although prone to lots of strange and strained commentary, see also sfj), and the points touched upon up above about whether and how things like dfa fit into that picture make it a more complicated question than just pasty-white-boys-can't-funk. but in regards vampire weekend in particular, i just don't feel it, i don't get it. they seem to me like a less-funny less-catchy they might be giants.

But then, Vampire Weekend has more interesting rhythms than any hip-hop record I've heard these past several years.
But then, Vampire Weekend has more interesting rhythms than any hip-hop record I've heard these past several years.
But then, Vampire Weekend has more interesting rhythms than any hip-hop record I've heard these past several years.
But then, Vampire Weekend has more interesting rhythms than any hip-hop record I've heard these past several years.
But then, Vampire Weekend has more interesting rhythms than any hip-hop record I've heard these past several years.
But then, Vampire Weekend has more interesting rhythms than any hip-hop record I've heard these past several years.
But then, Vampire Weekend has more interesting rhythms than any hip-hop record I've heard these past several years.
But then, Vampire Weekend has more interesting rhythms than any hip-hop record I've heard these past several years.
But then, Vampire Weekend has more interesting rhythms than any hip-hop record I've heard these past several years.
But then, Vampire Weekend has more interesting rhythms than any hip-hop record I've heard these past several years.

http://www.losanjealous.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/vampire_weekend_04.jpg

feels so unnatural, Peter Gabriel too.

speaking of which: anyone heard Hot Chip and Peeta Gabriel too?

pink shorts = secret to awesome rhythms

i want to belatedly otm rev's point about rhythms in hip-hop being in the vocal lines as much or more than the beats. i know that's not what reynolds was thinking of, but that in itself says a lot.

pink shorts = secret to awesome rhythms

It's "riddims."

"riddim" this!

I went and looked up K'naan, who I didn't know. Album originally came out in 2005, so that might be part of why he didn't get more votes. But I think you'll agree that this, cribbed from iTunes, is all the explanation you need:

There is nothing i can say about K'naan accept pure poetry. This is the rap people should be listening to on the radios! I just can't imagine why this isnt more popular. Truely great in all ways K'naan Your a role model in the rap community.

Note that the apostrophe in "can't" is in the original.

if the drummer has a hard time keeping a beat you'd think it would make their "deft" ability to "deal with rhythm well" a pretty theoretical pleasure

i want to belatedly otm rev's point about rhythms in hip-hop being in the vocal lines as much or more than the beats

The appearance of these two statements in close proximity is not making me feel particularly better about the thing I'm saying bugs me -- in this case, one person thoughtfully talking about rhythm in hip-hop in terms of things like the fine metrical variations of the rapping, and another person talking about rhythm in a rock band in terms of "what beat is the drummer playing," as if rhythmic elements are not carried in vocal meter and guitar accents and melodies and c.!

(That is not really a bit of scolding, except like a half-scold to croupier, who is kinda weirdly asking for burden-of-proof elaboration from the person who's not offering a judgment here)

nabisco, do you actually hear something really rhythmically interesting going on in Vampire Weekend's vocal delivery and guitar lines you could expand on? (Also, even in hip-hop, the fact that the basic beat is still pretty solid is what allows for the 'fine metrical variations of the rapping' to actually sound like fine metrical variations, surely.)

xpost

yeah, i agree with what yr saying nabisco, except that to me vampire weekend's uninterestingness doesn't begin or end with their drummer or beats per se, neither of which i think are terrible. the band as a whole (very much including the vocals) don't strike me as very interesting, rhythmically or otherwise. in terms of the rhythms specifically, there's very little depth to the band's engagement with its grooves, but the shallowness isn't imaginatively shallow (or paranoid and skittery, like the kind of dry-brittle rhythms you get in yr finer post-punk material).

Nabisco, I realize that was addressed more at croup than me, but I'd be the first to tell you that what's interesting about VW, rhythmically comes more from the guitar, bass, and keys (less so the vocals) than strictly from the drumbeats. Probably even more so from the way they all interact!

Sundar, he's not passing judgment on Vampire Weekend's rhythmic interest. He's saying that since so few of us understand rhythm in the first place (some of us even think it requires competency on the part of the musicians to appreciate its deft handling!) we shouldn't throw stones at those who claim to find it interesting.

it's 2009

stop talking about this band

I think you have to wait for the follow-up for that to happen

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/4/7151287_5d254b3944.jpg?v=0

Nachtmystium, Assassins: Black Meddle Vol. 1: Melody and groove were once as taboo in black metal as smiling, group hugs, and subscriptions to Cat Fancy, but this Chicago battering ram harnesses both into moments of dirt-beneath-the-fingernails grandeur, harsh atmosphere and Pink Floyd–indebted sonic landscaping that add new hues to the genre's once monochromatic palate. The Euros have had black metal in a headlock since its inception, but these dudes begin to pry Scandinavia's clammy hands from around its throat.

Jason Bracelin
Las Vegas, NV

So I wonder if this metal band does exhibit "melody and groove"

They're into the groove on this video-

A vivid demonstration of Chuck's point about indie dominance: I just went through the top 100 looking up anybody I couldn't immediately hum something by, and it was uncanny how many had Fleet Foxes in their "listeners also bought" list. And uncanny how few I bought.

On the other hand, I've listened to "If Rap Gets Jealous" about 9 times now. Rather more charming in the original version, I think, so I don't know if that bodes well for the new album.

i can't believe i ran and collated a couple of consensus polls before

I've listened to "If Rap Gets Jealous" about 9 times now. Rather more charming in the original version, I think, so I don't know if that bodes well for the new album.

Haven't figured out which version (or which album, having just recently gotten the new one) I prefer yet, but I assume you know that Kirk Hammett plays on the new version, right? (Pretty sure I like it better than anything on last year's Metallica album.)

Yeah, not sure Kirk adds much, but I'll wait until I can hear a better-quality version of the new version before giving up on it.

hey, they do get into the "Stranglehold" groove there (sort of), Steve. no lie.

xp

Late to say something, but the whole Q-Tip album grows on you--I wish I'd thrown my points behind it instead of the usual non-placers. Oh, and I voted for four hip-hop albums. Didn't vote for The Dusty Foot Philosopher, but liked it.

It's interesting that Pazz & Jop got 577 people to vote, while Continuum Press 33 1/3 series got 597 FULL PROPOSALS for books last month.

Fascinating.

Well sure, but each proposal only had to come up with a single album, and it didn't even have to have made its "impact" this year...

This is beginning to feel like a dog's lost a bone.