agreed. my shop will do 5 rounds/top 8 tournaments with 40-some people and after the Swiss portion everyone really just wants to drink. especially the Sealeds with top 8 draft, you wind up really not wanting to draft, which sounds weird now, but trust me
― frogbs, Monday, 10 September 2012 14:13 (eleven years ago) link
won my draft tonight w/ black/white exalted (again) I sorta hated my deck but it got the job done
― iatee, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 03:19 (eleven years ago) link
yeah i don't actually like the pure exalted decks much, most of the good exalted creatures die to Chandra's Fury or Cower in Fear so it's easy to set yourself up to get blown out
― ciderpress, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 13:46 (eleven years ago) link
I seem to get forced into Exalted an awful lot too. War Falcon just seems to table so frequently, and that + Aven Squire or one of the Knights is such a great start, maybe the best in the format.
Did wind up losing to a Fog Bank though. Yep. An 0/2 wall.
― frogbs, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 14:05 (eleven years ago) link
I had a pretty good mana curve so a lot of my wins were like, duty bound dead -> white or black exalted knight dude -> one of the many exalted 3 drops. I had no real bombs and only pacifism and murder but the swarm did the job most of the time.
― iatee, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 14:12 (eleven years ago) link
Duty Bound Dead is a great way to start. In constructed play, I'm even more fond of kicking off with Diregraf Ghoul. Adding in Vault of the Archangel helps give the exalted deck some extra backbone once you have a bunch of these small creatures on the board.
― Moodles, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 14:22 (eleven years ago) link
If we're talking constructed, is anyone playing Sublime Archangel yet?
― frogbs, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 14:27 (eleven years ago) link
I would be if it didn't cost $$$$. Just got beatdown last night by someone playing a bunch of these on MTGO.
― Moodles, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 14:27 (eleven years ago) link
i haven't tried it yet, since i generally prefer to go over the top in constructed instead of beating down
― ciderpress, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 14:58 (eleven years ago) link
I just made a Clock of Omens infinite combo deck that cost a total of $15 and has like 20 rares in it (sadly, it's all rotating out soon)
It's okay, but super fun (the infinite combo almost never happens though)
― frogbs, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 15:18 (eleven years ago) link
psst you should set yourself up to play the angel of glory's rise reanimator deck right after rotation, i think everyone's gonna be on zombies out of the gates
― ciderpress, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 15:24 (eleven years ago) link
One thing I think is funny about M13 is how Fog Bank seems like it was designed as a response to Exalted, because it completely shuts that deck down, but then you have Cripping Blight which almost seems like it was designed as an answer to Fog Bank.
― Vinnie, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 17:44 (eleven years ago) link
it's almost as if they have a team of like 5-6 people spending months on all these little details for each set! (they do)
― ciderpress, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 18:03 (eleven years ago) link
yep - I may have mentioned this upthread but the way Think Twice was chosen as an Innistrad reprint because Blue was supposed to be anti-wolf and it could flip werewolves in one shot really blew my mind.
M13 design really was very tight - the combo of Mogg Flunkies and Reckless Brute was definitely intended, but there are also subtle designs too, Merfolk of the Pearl Trident was apparently printed to give blue an answer to Brute, you're supposed to side it in. The way White has several paths for Limited is quite interesting (Exalted, plus a soldier token theme that goes along with Griffin Protector and the double Soul Warden) and unlike core sets in the past. I also love how Tormented Soul was in M12 but filled a totally different purpose there. Design/development has really been knocking them out of the park lately.
― frogbs, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 18:09 (eleven years ago) link
yeah 'back in the day' I don't remember limited play being so balanced and well thought out. there really isn't a weak color in m13 limited (red seems like it comes closest?)
― iatee, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 18:28 (eleven years ago) link
I esp remember blue and white being hard to draft, cause they were just always playing from behind
― iatee, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 18:50 (eleven years ago) link
i guess it depends when you were playing. Invasion was the first fun and balanced limited set, everything before it was pretty miserable for limited (seriously, urza's saga had Pestilence at COMMON. what the fuck)
― ciderpress, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 18:59 (eleven years ago) link
Invasion was incredible! That was really a new era of Magic design. That said I have to defend Urza's block a bit, it really was a great format in spite of Pestilence, though that was the first and only card I've ever thought should be banned in Limited
― frogbs, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 19:02 (eleven years ago) link
I was playing pre-urzas, so I drafted a lot of mirage and tempest block
― iatee, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 19:06 (eleven years ago) link
yeah i think those are both better than urza's and masques but worse than anything invasion-onwards, at least in terms of design and balance
― ciderpress, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 19:11 (eleven years ago) link
actually i'd probably rather play tempest limited than zendikar or AVR
― ciderpress, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 19:12 (eleven years ago) link
any set where a third of the white commons are circle of protections is lame
― iatee, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 19:21 (eleven years ago) link
I have a habit of collecting unopened boxes - when I win prizes for drafts I used to save them for "home drafting", but I'd never do that, so I'd just save up to 36 and trade 'em all in for a box, hoping it would have some trade value later. Today the store owner told me that for the final set of this block he wanted to do a prerelease that included Ravnica/Guildpact/Dissension and that he was willing to buy my boxes (I have one of each). Combined price is over a grand right now! How did this happen!? I'm thinking of just saying 800 flat (as this is already a windfall for me) but when did these actually begin to accumulate value? The Rav box is 400 - even if shocks weren't coming back, it's near impossible to pull that much value out of 36 packs. You'd need 2 Dark Confidants and like 10 shocks to get close.
― frogbs, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 21:24 (eleven years ago) link
I'd say it's due to being one of the most universally acclaimed limited formats of all time, plus age and being out of print, plus nostalgia from Return to Ravnica.
― webber, Thursday, 13 September 2012 02:12 (eleven years ago) link
Yeah, it must be all about draft value. Several years ago, I went on a small buying spree to catch up on the years of sets I had skipped, and a starter box of Invasion was a sizable amount less per card than a booster box. Makes sense when you think about it.
― Vinnie, Thursday, 13 September 2012 13:26 (eleven years ago) link
Ajani, Caller of the Pride 1.40Primordial Hydra 1.49Jace, Memory Adept 1.54Chandra, the Firebrand 1.56Garruk, Primal Hunter 1.60Sublime Archangel 1.67Odric, Master Tactician 1.69Thragtusk 1.70Liliana of the Dark Realms 1.73Thundermaw Hellkite 1.78Captain of the Watch 1.82Nefarox, Overlord of Grixis 1.82Sphinx of Uthuun 1.86Akroma's Memorial 1.88Stuffy Doll 1.90Staff of Nin 1.92Elderscale Wurm 2.01Talrand, Sky Summoner 2.11Krenko, Mob Boss 2.13Serra Avenger 2.17Silklash Spider 2.18Yeva, Nature's Herald 2.19Xathrid Gorgon 2.23Rancor 2.27Clone 2.36Cathedral of War 2.38Oblivion Ring 2.38Intrepid Hero 2.40Vampire Nighthawk 2.41Sands of Delirium 2.54Disciple of Bolas 2.54Vampire Nocturnus 2.60Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker 2.60Predatory Rampage 2.64Shimian Specter 2.64Mutilate 2.70Serra Angel 2.75Magmaquake 2.89Firewing Phoenix 2.90Stormtide Leviathan 2.90Rhox Faithmender 2.92Talrand's Invocation 2.94Serra Avatar 2.97Quirion Dryad 2.97Slumbering Dragon 2.98Void Stalker 2.99Knight of Glory 3.01Gilded Lotus 3.17Murder 3.19Trading Post 3.19Knight of Infamy 3.31Garruk's Packleader 3.59Aven Squire 3.60Elvish Archdruid 3.60Flames of the Firebrand 3.63Pacifism 3.75Sleep 3.77Planar Cleansing 3.87Attended Knight 3.92Redirect 3.94Acidic Slime 4.02Hamletback Goliath 4.03Phylactery Lich 4.08Searing Spear 4.12Sentinel Spider 4.12Reverberate 4.17Arctic Aven 4.22Fog Bank 4.26Volcanic Geyser 4.35Crusader of Odric 4.42Switcheroo 4.46Duskdale Wurm 4.51Hellion Crucible 4.53Public Execution 4.53Spelltwine 4.73Arbor Elf 4.73Master of the Pearl Trident 4.75Healer of the Pride 4.78Deadly Recluse 4.78Rise from the Grave 4.80Roaring Primadox 4.83Fervor 4.83Giant Scorpion 4.95Faith's Reward 4.96Elvish Visionary 4.98Duskmantle Prowler 5.00Angelic Benediction 5.12Arms Dealer 5.18War Priest of Thune 5.35Augur of Bolas 5.38Divination 5.38Glacial Fortress 5.49Jace's Phantasm 5.51Drowned Catacomb 5.54Dragonskull Summit 5.60Rootbound Crag 5.64Ajani's Sunstriker 5.65Servant of Nefarox 5.69Primal Huntbeast 5.70Mwonvuli Beast Tracker 5.71Wind Drake 5.73Sunpetal Grove 5.75Harbor Bandit 5.75Guardians of Akrasa 5.76Divine Verdict 5.78Bloodhunter Bat 5.80Welkin Tern 5.82Captain's Call 5.83Bladetusk Boar 5.83Chronomaton 5.86Duty-Bound Dead 5.93Primal Clay 5.96Ring of Xathrid 6.12Furnace Whelp 6.17Essence Scatter 6.20Griffin Protector 6.24Prized Elephant 6.25Elixir of Immortality 6.25Faerie Invaders 6.29Krenko's Command 6.30Mark of Mutiny 6.30Scroll Thief 6.35Cower in Fear 6.38Ring of Thune 6.39Flinthoof Boar 6.40Sign in Blood 6.47Farseek 6.47Turn to Slag 6.48Rewind 6.49Tormented Soul 6.50Evolving Wilds 6.50Essence Drain 6.51Goblin Arsonist 6.57Ring of Kalonia 6.58Kitesail 6.70Timberpack Wolf 6.76Unsummon 6.83Negate 6.87Prey Upon 6.90Ravenous Rats 6.93Centaur Courser 6.99Mind Rot 7.01Ring of Evos Isle 7.02Duress 7.03Diabolic Revelation 7.07Ring of Valkas 7.13Archaeomancer 7.26Titanic Growth 7.30Crimson Muckwader 7.35Mogg Flunkies 7.37Mindclaw Shaman 7.39Plummet 7.43Spiked Baloth 7.43Safe Passage 7.45Mind Sculpt 7.45Walking Corpse 7.46Encrust 7.47Bloodthrone Vampire 7.61Yeva's Forcemage 7.63Silvercoat Lion 7.77Fungal Sprouting 7.89Dark Favor 8.02Mark of the Vampire 8.08Divine Favor 8.15Worldfire 8.16Fog 8.20Courtly Provocateur 8.27Warclamp Mastiff 8.39Vedalken Entrancer 8.43Harbor Serpent 8.57Omniscience 8.57Volcanic Strength 8.63Liliana's Shade 8.64Bond Beetle 8.65Kraken Hatchling 8.67Disentomb 8.69Chandra's Fury 8.70Vastwood Gorger 8.70Naturalize 8.73Canyon Minotaur 8.76Battleflight Eagle 8.86Tricks of the Trade 8.91Jayemdae Tome 8.94Blood Reckoning 9.05War Falcon 9.08Phyrexian Hulk 9.10Downpour 9.12Rain of Blades 9.16Dragon Hatchling 9.23Crippling Blight 9.33Torch Fiend 9.38Vile Rebirth 9.40Revive 9.40Fire Elemental 9.41Rummaging Goblin 9.44Boundless Realms 9.46Veilborn Ghoul 9.54Ranger's Path 9.80Ground Seal 9.86Touch of the Eternal 9.89Gem of Becoming 9.93Reckless Brute 10.00Show of Valor 10.04Watercourser 10.11Cleaver Riot 10.11Index 10.13Wall of Fire 10.24Reliquary Tower 10.25Wit's End 10.26Goblin Battle Jester 10.27Glorious Charge 10.35Merfolk of the Pearl Trident 10.45Zombie Goliath 10.52Kindled Fury 10.79Trumpet Blast 10.86Door to Nothingness 11.03Guardian Lions 11.06Pillarfield Ox 11.07Tormod's Crypt 11.10Wild Guess 11.13Angel's Mercy 11.21Erase 11.21Serpent's Gift 11.24Hydrosurge 11.59Smelt 11.99Bountiful Harvest 12.03Battle of Wits 12.10Craterize 12.10Clock of Omens 12.58Forest 12.85Plains 12.89Mountain 13.01Island 13.20Swamp 13.65
― iatee, Saturday, 15 September 2012 20:47 (eleven years ago) link
that's an 'average pick #' from the draft sim site I found and have been playing around w/ today. it seems fairly accurate in the 'you'd almost always pick the highest ranked card of your color/s' way. what cards on this list do you guys disagree most w/, ranking-wise?
― iatee, Saturday, 15 September 2012 20:48 (eleven years ago) link
theres a lot of raredrafting bias on that it seems - for example in black liliana is worse than xathrid gorgon, nefarox, mutilate, and vampire nighthawk
staff of nin should be #1 on the list without considering card prices because its a top 5 card in the set and is colorless
― ciderpress, Saturday, 15 September 2012 21:09 (eleven years ago) link
this is really tough to judge, as $ concerns obviously cloud some of this (for example Master of the Pearl Trident being at above 5 when it's basically useless in Limited)
anyway, I think Arms Dealer is ranked way too low (it's a 1st-2nd pick IMO), Deadly Recluse is also something you want to snap up quick, though there are a lot of good green commons.
also feel that Wind Drake is too high, War Falcon too low
― frogbs, Saturday, 15 September 2012 21:09 (eleven years ago) link
yeah i'd actually say most of these are pretty off - just noticed watercourser at 10.11 while wind drake is well into the top half. i take the courser over wind drake in almost every blue deck
― ciderpress, Saturday, 15 September 2012 21:11 (eleven years ago) link
Clone seems way overrated too... it's a flexible card that would go in any deck but above Cathedral of War and Oblivion Ring?
― iatee, Saturday, 15 September 2012 21:14 (eleven years ago) link
but while actually using the site (http://tappedout.net/mtg-draft-simulator) the rankings (which they put under the cards) seem to fit fairly well w/ my choices
― iatee, Saturday, 15 September 2012 21:15 (eleven years ago) link
my understnading about those sites is that the rankings are generated from the users, and people who are using practice draft sims are generally not going to be the strongest drafters
plus M13 is way more of a synergy set than a goodstuff set unlike previous core sets - there's more of a distinct divide between cards for control and beatdown decks and therefore something like Welkin Tern can be a top 3 pick or an unplayable depending on what you're trying to do
― ciderpress, Saturday, 15 September 2012 21:18 (eleven years ago) link
I'd pick Sleep over like 60% of the cards above it, most of which are really not that great in Limited (Vampire Nocturnus seems like a good early pick until you realize that it's a vanilla 3/3 most of the time and there is only a couple of Vampires in the set)
― frogbs, Saturday, 15 September 2012 21:24 (eleven years ago) link
other rankings I'm questioning, tell me yr thoughts:
Stormtide Leviathan 2.90Gilded Lotus 3.17Sleep 3.77Chronomaton 5.86Duty-Bound Dead 5.93Krenko's Command 6.30Tormented Soul 6.50Prey Upon 6.90Encrust 7.47Courtly Provocateur 8.27
xp
― iatee, Saturday, 15 September 2012 21:26 (eleven years ago) link
Went 2-1 last night in another innistrad/dark ascension draft with red/green werewolves. Not sure I really get the love for these sets versus the general disinterest in m13 at my local store.
― Moodles, Saturday, 15 September 2012 21:26 (eleven years ago) link
ha really, is sleep that good? when I've played against it all it does is buy someone some time. I guess it could be a win in the right circumstance, but cards that depend on circumstance aren't as good as cards that are always gonna be useful.
― iatee, Saturday, 15 September 2012 21:27 (eleven years ago) link
(the 5+s in that I think are underrated)
― iatee, Saturday, 15 September 2012 21:28 (eleven years ago) link
Stormtide - actually don't really have a problem with this, it's a big game-ending bomb and I don't know if there are any blue commons I'd take over it. Also it stops all non-flyers from attacking so like Elderscale it kind of protects you too. But I've never been good at evaluating dumb 8 mana rares. Wouldn't take it over Sleep or Talrand's Invocation though
Gilded Lotus - pretty much unplayable, and not even really worth money anymore either, don't get this at all
Sleep - definitely a top 3 blue card, should be higher
Chronomation - as an artifact I'd think it would be higher. Better than most commons so I find it hard to imagine that most packs have 5 cards better than it that happened to fit into whatever colors
Duty-Bound - seems about right, the exalted decks I build are always heavier White (I like War Falcon here)
Krenko's - again, seems right, maybe should be lower, I'm only glad to play this card when I have Arms Dealer or Krenko. Having multiple 1/1's kinda sucks in this format thanks to Cower in Fear and Chandra's Fury. Captains Call isn't very good either but it at least plays nice with other white cards.
Tormented Soul - seems okay, for some black decks this is like a 3rd pick, other black decks may not want it at all
Prey Upon - yeah, this is much better than Tormented Soul, I don't understand why this card comes around so late
Encrust - it's never as good as it looks sadly, still a solid card, I'd take it as a 7th pick
Provocateur - another card that seems better than it actually is...I've had success with it in Green/Blue though. In general it's harder to find good opportunities to use this than you might think.
― frogbs, Saturday, 15 September 2012 21:40 (eleven years ago) link
Sleep definitely is that good - if you're behind, it buys you 2 turns, if you're ahead, it can be an auto-win. I understand taking Invocation over it because that card is really always useful, while Sleep isn't the kind of card you want in your opening hand. But every time I've cast it, it's been a bomb.
― frogbs, Saturday, 15 September 2012 21:44 (eleven years ago) link
duty-bound to me seems like the best one drop around, but maybe I'm overrating it due to how many wins it's gotten me.
more
Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker 2.60 is this even playable p1p1? Primal Clay 5.96 can fit in p much every deck? Fervor 4.83 overrated even as a 5th pick?
― iatee, Saturday, 15 September 2012 21:52 (eleven years ago) link
I think Chronomaton is a better one drop - Duty Bound is probably one of the best but one-drops generally aren't very good in Limited. I'm sure it's good in B/anything but in general my exalted decks always skew heavy white.
On the other three there, I've tried and failed to make Bolas ever work, so yeah. For Clay, 6th seems alright...it fits into any deck yes but you're either overpaying for Centaur Corsair or you are for Wind Drake, and the Wall option isn't exactly earth-shattering either. I pick 'em up and I'm okay playing them but in general it's not very good. Fervor I've never seen played period so I can't really say, my guess is it's only good if you don't have 3 drops
― frogbs, Saturday, 15 September 2012 22:04 (eleven years ago) link
the one that really confuses me is this - Scorpion is a top black common, outside of Murder obviously
Rise from the Grave 4.80Giant Scorpion 4.95
the rares really skew this in a weird way. So many basically unplayable rares like Faith's Reward, Hamletback, Phylatchery Lich, etc. are being pegged as 4th-5th picks
― frogbs, Saturday, 15 September 2012 22:06 (eleven years ago) link
hamletback seems playable imo. lich I would play if I was running 66%+ black w/ 4+ artifacts.
― iatee, Saturday, 15 September 2012 22:08 (eleven years ago) link
i dunno how many drafts will have even one deck that fits that description. outside of some uncommons it's tough to wind up with 4 playable artifacts
Hamletback has always been disappointing. Gets shut down by a lot, costs too much in a color that really tries to be fast, and it's in a set with a lot of common token producers. I've played it and I've seen it balloon up to like a 20/20 or so but it never wins me any games the way a Stormtide would. I usually side it out.
― frogbs, Saturday, 15 September 2012 22:14 (eleven years ago) link
hamletback is terrible its probably the second worst red rare tbh. its basically 7 mana to do nothing
bolas is a p sweet p1p1 since you can definitely build around it and its certainly a huge bomb - ive drafted bolas 4 times and the only time i didnt do well was when i was passed him p2p2 and had been drafting a much more aggressive red/black deck built around arms dealer and even then i managed to go 2-2 in matches and like 5-4 in games.
ive made fervor work in a nearly mono-red g/r aggro deck but it was still a terrible option tbh and i probably shouldnt have played it.
i dont think sleep is very good and i really liked u/x tempo decks in M13. i guess i just agree w/the common wisdom that achieves too little when you're behind and doesn't do enough when you're ahead esp because my blue decks tend not to have that much trouble getting through as is.
― Lamp, Saturday, 15 September 2012 22:25 (eleven years ago) link
yeah I guess for 7 mana you want more than 'be a really big creature'
you got time to practice draft? prob the only opportunity I'll have to steal gf's comp this week.
― iatee, Saturday, 15 September 2012 22:28 (eleven years ago) link
I got jace, talrand and his invocation, quirion, sands and 3 mind sculpts in a fake draft
I want to play that deck :(
― iatee, Saturday, 15 September 2012 22:30 (eleven years ago) link
the problem I always have w/ Bolas is it's 3 colors. I like splashing a color and playing Gem of Becoming but that's hard to pull off.
I dunno why you guys are having such bad experiences w/ Sleep. If you're going flying kill it stalls a couple turns so you can win the race, if you've got ground creatures they're all basically unblockable for two turns.
― frogbs, Saturday, 15 September 2012 22:32 (eleven years ago) link
xp that reminds me of a draft I did where a guy went Turn 2 Mind Sculpt, Turn 3 Mind Sculpt, Turn 4 double Mind Sculpt. I was blown away.
― frogbs, Saturday, 15 September 2012 22:33 (eleven years ago) link