sands is tricky since your deck has to be good enough at stabilizing the board that it can do it with one fewer card, which hasn't been the case a couple of the times i've had it. it's definitely a strong card though in the right deck.
mindclaw is awesome and i pick it pretty high, within red i have it about equivalent to furnace whelp, i.e. worse than spot removal, better than other creatures except for flunkies if you're a beatdown deck. you can side it out vs green-white decks since they don't have as many targets for it
― ciderpress, Sunday, 9 September 2012 03:45 (eleven years ago) link
Oh wait, did we not link to this? AV Club did a thing this week:
Revisiting Magic: The Gathering as a grown-up nerd
http://www.avclub.com/articles/revisiting-magic-the-gathering-as-a-grownup-nerd,84662/
http://media.avclub.com/images/413/413016/16x9/627.jpg?4667
― Fiendish Doctor Wu (kingfish), Sunday, 9 September 2012 05:05 (eleven years ago) link
yeah I've had a fun time with Sands lately. seem to always get it in my opening hand which is not really optimal. then I had one game that I won on turn 28 (!) because it was the 5th-last card in my deck. was actually DOA the turn before if he had swung with all his flyers but I guess he played it safe not thinking about getting ducked.
my problem with Mindclaw is that you'd never say, side out a Furnace Whelp, so I tend to be careful about taking it too early. I've gotten destroyed by them (one took a Predatory Rampage, barf), and saved (by hitting a Sleep), but it's such a hard one to evaluate. I'll take your word for it.
― frogbs, Sunday, 9 September 2012 05:19 (eleven years ago) link
cool game
― if markers existed (buzza), Sunday, 9 September 2012 06:50 (eleven years ago) link
otm
― iatee, Sunday, 9 September 2012 15:24 (eleven years ago) link
great article. i played maybe one game of Magic in my life but it always looked like a blast
― Emperor Cos Dashit (Adam Bruneau), Sunday, 9 September 2012 15:28 (eleven years ago) link
Sands I wonder about as a 1st pick; assuming no foil rare (so the pack is all commons and uncommons) would you take anything p1p1 over it? How about p2p1, when you're already in (say) Black, would you take Murder or Vampire Nighthawk over it?
sands is always a 1st pick ime even over flames. p1p2 i might take a card that solidified a bomb 1st pick over it - like arms dealer + krenko or talrand + talrand or something. there are still outs to sands so if i pass it can prioritize them but yeah, i would hate to have to pass it.
i think mindclaw shaman sucks but i dont tend to draft the sort of decks that want it, maybe? i always find myself passing them even really late but that might be a hole in my game. i just dont think its efficient enough to main deck in most of my draft decks
― Lamp, Sunday, 9 September 2012 18:54 (eleven years ago) link
the thing with Sands is that it always seems so much better to draw it on turn 5-6 rather than have it in your opener. But when it comes out, it's usually ridiculous. Like you just have to get them to say 14 cards left w/ 7 mana out and you just pass one turn to win.
Mindclaw would be an awesome card to see statistics on through MTGO or whatever; what % does it hit, and what spells does it usually grab. Because hitting something like Essence Drain, Public Execution, Sleep, Turn to Slag, etc. with it seems like just an insane advantage, not just casting it, but denying your opponent the spell too. Even a glorified Ravenous Rates at 4R doesn't seem horrible. But it would be nice to know how likely you are to grab something.
― frogbs, Monday, 10 September 2012 05:17 (eleven years ago) link
it seems pretty bad to me. it's worse than duress (a marginal sideboard card), because not only do they have to have a non-creature non-land in their hand, they had to have gotten to turn 5-7 without actually casting it, and not be in a position where they can just respond to the mindclaw shaman with their instant. also it doesn't hit planeswalkers, and there are a large number of instant/sorceries that won't do anything, even if you mindclaw them. the 2/2 body is an upside compared to duress, but it wouldn't be relevant on turn 3, let alone turn 5-7, and it's certainly not worth 4 extra mana. pass.
― webber, Monday, 10 September 2012 05:26 (eleven years ago) link
in limited, those last couple cards in their hand on turn 5 or 6 are much more likely to be removal though, and if you hit with it you win the game a very high % of the time. it's a high-risk high-reward card obviously, and i've had reasonable success with it so far
― ciderpress, Monday, 10 September 2012 13:17 (eleven years ago) link
It's not a Duress any more than Mind Control is Murder, you know?
I kind of wonder how many instants and sorceries regularly get cast on the first 5 turns. I haven't drafted the card enough to really know but as cider says hitting something like a removal spell or a Sleep is basically game over
― frogbs, Monday, 10 September 2012 13:20 (eleven years ago) link
Mindclaw is a great sideboard card, there's certain decks it's just insane against. Was watching a stream lately where a guy cast it, opponent revealed a hand of Mind Rot + 2 creatures. Those kind of moments are what I live for in Magic.
So psyched for Ravnica 2, and I'll be going with some friends to the Ravnica sealed deck Grand Prix in Philly at the end of October. Anyone here played in those bigger tournaments like Grand Prixes?
― Vinnie, Monday, 10 September 2012 13:54 (eleven years ago) link
The upside is too insane to leave it in your sideboard. Anyway come to think of it I'm pretty bummed this thing was never around in the days of Cruel Control. What a ballbuster.
GP's are fun if you go with a large group, otherwise it's just too many Magic players in a too small space for me. You really have to make a day of it. Maybe I'm biased because I've had bad experiences. I did one where I wound up in a spot where a win would give me top 8 and I wound up playing against a guy who couldn't get top 8, but could get top 16 with a win or split - don't really know the specifics, but I found out from some guys watching the match that he was stalling hardcore for the draw. I was playing Millstone and had him DOA but the game took too long. Another one I go 5-1 with a goofy Nomad Mythmaker deck and get a match loss due to marked sleeves (this was where I learned to always either shuffle your sleeves or your deck before sleeving). The one I did top 8 I had a bad time b/c my last Swiss round guy flipped out when I beat him with a "random Stonewood Invocation" (which was like, my favorite card at the time and I played 4), having to hear him bitch about the "stupid kid that just lucked a victory" from a distance was not fun at all.
― frogbs, Monday, 10 September 2012 14:08 (eleven years ago) link
have not played a grand prix, had to skip the one here last month because i was in the process of moving and didn't have time to go. honestly, playing 9 rounds of magic in one day sounds like too much to me, i start to feel gross and exhausted after 4 or 5 rounds at the local shop
― ciderpress, Monday, 10 September 2012 14:11 (eleven years ago) link
agreed. my shop will do 5 rounds/top 8 tournaments with 40-some people and after the Swiss portion everyone really just wants to drink. especially the Sealeds with top 8 draft, you wind up really not wanting to draft, which sounds weird now, but trust me
― frogbs, Monday, 10 September 2012 14:13 (eleven years ago) link
won my draft tonight w/ black/white exalted (again) I sorta hated my deck but it got the job done
― iatee, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 03:19 (eleven years ago) link
yeah i don't actually like the pure exalted decks much, most of the good exalted creatures die to Chandra's Fury or Cower in Fear so it's easy to set yourself up to get blown out
― ciderpress, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 13:46 (eleven years ago) link
I seem to get forced into Exalted an awful lot too. War Falcon just seems to table so frequently, and that + Aven Squire or one of the Knights is such a great start, maybe the best in the format.
Did wind up losing to a Fog Bank though. Yep. An 0/2 wall.
― frogbs, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 14:05 (eleven years ago) link
I had a pretty good mana curve so a lot of my wins were like, duty bound dead -> white or black exalted knight dude -> one of the many exalted 3 drops. I had no real bombs and only pacifism and murder but the swarm did the job most of the time.
― iatee, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 14:12 (eleven years ago) link
Duty Bound Dead is a great way to start. In constructed play, I'm even more fond of kicking off with Diregraf Ghoul. Adding in Vault of the Archangel helps give the exalted deck some extra backbone once you have a bunch of these small creatures on the board.
― Moodles, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 14:22 (eleven years ago) link
If we're talking constructed, is anyone playing Sublime Archangel yet?
― frogbs, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 14:27 (eleven years ago) link
I would be if it didn't cost $$$$. Just got beatdown last night by someone playing a bunch of these on MTGO.
― Moodles, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 14:27 (eleven years ago) link
i haven't tried it yet, since i generally prefer to go over the top in constructed instead of beating down
― ciderpress, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 14:58 (eleven years ago) link
I just made a Clock of Omens infinite combo deck that cost a total of $15 and has like 20 rares in it (sadly, it's all rotating out soon)
It's okay, but super fun (the infinite combo almost never happens though)
― frogbs, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 15:18 (eleven years ago) link
psst you should set yourself up to play the angel of glory's rise reanimator deck right after rotation, i think everyone's gonna be on zombies out of the gates
― ciderpress, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 15:24 (eleven years ago) link
One thing I think is funny about M13 is how Fog Bank seems like it was designed as a response to Exalted, because it completely shuts that deck down, but then you have Cripping Blight which almost seems like it was designed as an answer to Fog Bank.
― Vinnie, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 17:44 (eleven years ago) link
it's almost as if they have a team of like 5-6 people spending months on all these little details for each set! (they do)
― ciderpress, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 18:03 (eleven years ago) link
yep - I may have mentioned this upthread but the way Think Twice was chosen as an Innistrad reprint because Blue was supposed to be anti-wolf and it could flip werewolves in one shot really blew my mind.
M13 design really was very tight - the combo of Mogg Flunkies and Reckless Brute was definitely intended, but there are also subtle designs too, Merfolk of the Pearl Trident was apparently printed to give blue an answer to Brute, you're supposed to side it in. The way White has several paths for Limited is quite interesting (Exalted, plus a soldier token theme that goes along with Griffin Protector and the double Soul Warden) and unlike core sets in the past. I also love how Tormented Soul was in M12 but filled a totally different purpose there. Design/development has really been knocking them out of the park lately.
― frogbs, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 18:09 (eleven years ago) link
yeah 'back in the day' I don't remember limited play being so balanced and well thought out. there really isn't a weak color in m13 limited (red seems like it comes closest?)
― iatee, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 18:28 (eleven years ago) link
I esp remember blue and white being hard to draft, cause they were just always playing from behind
― iatee, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 18:50 (eleven years ago) link
i guess it depends when you were playing. Invasion was the first fun and balanced limited set, everything before it was pretty miserable for limited (seriously, urza's saga had Pestilence at COMMON. what the fuck)
― ciderpress, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 18:59 (eleven years ago) link
Invasion was incredible! That was really a new era of Magic design. That said I have to defend Urza's block a bit, it really was a great format in spite of Pestilence, though that was the first and only card I've ever thought should be banned in Limited
― frogbs, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 19:02 (eleven years ago) link
I was playing pre-urzas, so I drafted a lot of mirage and tempest block
― iatee, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 19:06 (eleven years ago) link
yeah i think those are both better than urza's and masques but worse than anything invasion-onwards, at least in terms of design and balance
― ciderpress, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 19:11 (eleven years ago) link
actually i'd probably rather play tempest limited than zendikar or AVR
― ciderpress, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 19:12 (eleven years ago) link
any set where a third of the white commons are circle of protections is lame
― iatee, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 19:21 (eleven years ago) link
I have a habit of collecting unopened boxes - when I win prizes for drafts I used to save them for "home drafting", but I'd never do that, so I'd just save up to 36 and trade 'em all in for a box, hoping it would have some trade value later. Today the store owner told me that for the final set of this block he wanted to do a prerelease that included Ravnica/Guildpact/Dissension and that he was willing to buy my boxes (I have one of each). Combined price is over a grand right now! How did this happen!? I'm thinking of just saying 800 flat (as this is already a windfall for me) but when did these actually begin to accumulate value? The Rav box is 400 - even if shocks weren't coming back, it's near impossible to pull that much value out of 36 packs. You'd need 2 Dark Confidants and like 10 shocks to get close.
― frogbs, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 21:24 (eleven years ago) link
I'd say it's due to being one of the most universally acclaimed limited formats of all time, plus age and being out of print, plus nostalgia from Return to Ravnica.
― webber, Thursday, 13 September 2012 02:12 (eleven years ago) link
Yeah, it must be all about draft value. Several years ago, I went on a small buying spree to catch up on the years of sets I had skipped, and a starter box of Invasion was a sizable amount less per card than a booster box. Makes sense when you think about it.
― Vinnie, Thursday, 13 September 2012 13:26 (eleven years ago) link
Ajani, Caller of the Pride 1.40Primordial Hydra 1.49Jace, Memory Adept 1.54Chandra, the Firebrand 1.56Garruk, Primal Hunter 1.60Sublime Archangel 1.67Odric, Master Tactician 1.69Thragtusk 1.70Liliana of the Dark Realms 1.73Thundermaw Hellkite 1.78Captain of the Watch 1.82Nefarox, Overlord of Grixis 1.82Sphinx of Uthuun 1.86Akroma's Memorial 1.88Stuffy Doll 1.90Staff of Nin 1.92Elderscale Wurm 2.01Talrand, Sky Summoner 2.11Krenko, Mob Boss 2.13Serra Avenger 2.17Silklash Spider 2.18Yeva, Nature's Herald 2.19Xathrid Gorgon 2.23Rancor 2.27Clone 2.36Cathedral of War 2.38Oblivion Ring 2.38Intrepid Hero 2.40Vampire Nighthawk 2.41Sands of Delirium 2.54Disciple of Bolas 2.54Vampire Nocturnus 2.60Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker 2.60Predatory Rampage 2.64Shimian Specter 2.64Mutilate 2.70Serra Angel 2.75Magmaquake 2.89Firewing Phoenix 2.90Stormtide Leviathan 2.90Rhox Faithmender 2.92Talrand's Invocation 2.94Serra Avatar 2.97Quirion Dryad 2.97Slumbering Dragon 2.98Void Stalker 2.99Knight of Glory 3.01Gilded Lotus 3.17Murder 3.19Trading Post 3.19Knight of Infamy 3.31Garruk's Packleader 3.59Aven Squire 3.60Elvish Archdruid 3.60Flames of the Firebrand 3.63Pacifism 3.75Sleep 3.77Planar Cleansing 3.87Attended Knight 3.92Redirect 3.94Acidic Slime 4.02Hamletback Goliath 4.03Phylactery Lich 4.08Searing Spear 4.12Sentinel Spider 4.12Reverberate 4.17Arctic Aven 4.22Fog Bank 4.26Volcanic Geyser 4.35Crusader of Odric 4.42Switcheroo 4.46Duskdale Wurm 4.51Hellion Crucible 4.53Public Execution 4.53Spelltwine 4.73Arbor Elf 4.73Master of the Pearl Trident 4.75Healer of the Pride 4.78Deadly Recluse 4.78Rise from the Grave 4.80Roaring Primadox 4.83Fervor 4.83Giant Scorpion 4.95Faith's Reward 4.96Elvish Visionary 4.98Duskmantle Prowler 5.00Angelic Benediction 5.12Arms Dealer 5.18War Priest of Thune 5.35Augur of Bolas 5.38Divination 5.38Glacial Fortress 5.49Jace's Phantasm 5.51Drowned Catacomb 5.54Dragonskull Summit 5.60Rootbound Crag 5.64Ajani's Sunstriker 5.65Servant of Nefarox 5.69Primal Huntbeast 5.70Mwonvuli Beast Tracker 5.71Wind Drake 5.73Sunpetal Grove 5.75Harbor Bandit 5.75Guardians of Akrasa 5.76Divine Verdict 5.78Bloodhunter Bat 5.80Welkin Tern 5.82Captain's Call 5.83Bladetusk Boar 5.83Chronomaton 5.86Duty-Bound Dead 5.93Primal Clay 5.96Ring of Xathrid 6.12Furnace Whelp 6.17Essence Scatter 6.20Griffin Protector 6.24Prized Elephant 6.25Elixir of Immortality 6.25Faerie Invaders 6.29Krenko's Command 6.30Mark of Mutiny 6.30Scroll Thief 6.35Cower in Fear 6.38Ring of Thune 6.39Flinthoof Boar 6.40Sign in Blood 6.47Farseek 6.47Turn to Slag 6.48Rewind 6.49Tormented Soul 6.50Evolving Wilds 6.50Essence Drain 6.51Goblin Arsonist 6.57Ring of Kalonia 6.58Kitesail 6.70Timberpack Wolf 6.76Unsummon 6.83Negate 6.87Prey Upon 6.90Ravenous Rats 6.93Centaur Courser 6.99Mind Rot 7.01Ring of Evos Isle 7.02Duress 7.03Diabolic Revelation 7.07Ring of Valkas 7.13Archaeomancer 7.26Titanic Growth 7.30Crimson Muckwader 7.35Mogg Flunkies 7.37Mindclaw Shaman 7.39Plummet 7.43Spiked Baloth 7.43Safe Passage 7.45Mind Sculpt 7.45Walking Corpse 7.46Encrust 7.47Bloodthrone Vampire 7.61Yeva's Forcemage 7.63Silvercoat Lion 7.77Fungal Sprouting 7.89Dark Favor 8.02Mark of the Vampire 8.08Divine Favor 8.15Worldfire 8.16Fog 8.20Courtly Provocateur 8.27Warclamp Mastiff 8.39Vedalken Entrancer 8.43Harbor Serpent 8.57Omniscience 8.57Volcanic Strength 8.63Liliana's Shade 8.64Bond Beetle 8.65Kraken Hatchling 8.67Disentomb 8.69Chandra's Fury 8.70Vastwood Gorger 8.70Naturalize 8.73Canyon Minotaur 8.76Battleflight Eagle 8.86Tricks of the Trade 8.91Jayemdae Tome 8.94Blood Reckoning 9.05War Falcon 9.08Phyrexian Hulk 9.10Downpour 9.12Rain of Blades 9.16Dragon Hatchling 9.23Crippling Blight 9.33Torch Fiend 9.38Vile Rebirth 9.40Revive 9.40Fire Elemental 9.41Rummaging Goblin 9.44Boundless Realms 9.46Veilborn Ghoul 9.54Ranger's Path 9.80Ground Seal 9.86Touch of the Eternal 9.89Gem of Becoming 9.93Reckless Brute 10.00Show of Valor 10.04Watercourser 10.11Cleaver Riot 10.11Index 10.13Wall of Fire 10.24Reliquary Tower 10.25Wit's End 10.26Goblin Battle Jester 10.27Glorious Charge 10.35Merfolk of the Pearl Trident 10.45Zombie Goliath 10.52Kindled Fury 10.79Trumpet Blast 10.86Door to Nothingness 11.03Guardian Lions 11.06Pillarfield Ox 11.07Tormod's Crypt 11.10Wild Guess 11.13Angel's Mercy 11.21Erase 11.21Serpent's Gift 11.24Hydrosurge 11.59Smelt 11.99Bountiful Harvest 12.03Battle of Wits 12.10Craterize 12.10Clock of Omens 12.58Forest 12.85Plains 12.89Mountain 13.01Island 13.20Swamp 13.65
― iatee, Saturday, 15 September 2012 20:47 (eleven years ago) link
that's an 'average pick #' from the draft sim site I found and have been playing around w/ today. it seems fairly accurate in the 'you'd almost always pick the highest ranked card of your color/s' way. what cards on this list do you guys disagree most w/, ranking-wise?
― iatee, Saturday, 15 September 2012 20:48 (eleven years ago) link
theres a lot of raredrafting bias on that it seems - for example in black liliana is worse than xathrid gorgon, nefarox, mutilate, and vampire nighthawk
staff of nin should be #1 on the list without considering card prices because its a top 5 card in the set and is colorless
― ciderpress, Saturday, 15 September 2012 21:09 (eleven years ago) link
this is really tough to judge, as $ concerns obviously cloud some of this (for example Master of the Pearl Trident being at above 5 when it's basically useless in Limited)
anyway, I think Arms Dealer is ranked way too low (it's a 1st-2nd pick IMO), Deadly Recluse is also something you want to snap up quick, though there are a lot of good green commons.
also feel that Wind Drake is too high, War Falcon too low
― frogbs, Saturday, 15 September 2012 21:09 (eleven years ago) link
yeah i'd actually say most of these are pretty off - just noticed watercourser at 10.11 while wind drake is well into the top half. i take the courser over wind drake in almost every blue deck
― ciderpress, Saturday, 15 September 2012 21:11 (eleven years ago) link
Clone seems way overrated too... it's a flexible card that would go in any deck but above Cathedral of War and Oblivion Ring?
― iatee, Saturday, 15 September 2012 21:14 (eleven years ago) link
but while actually using the site (http://tappedout.net/mtg-draft-simulator) the rankings (which they put under the cards) seem to fit fairly well w/ my choices
― iatee, Saturday, 15 September 2012 21:15 (eleven years ago) link
my understnading about those sites is that the rankings are generated from the users, and people who are using practice draft sims are generally not going to be the strongest drafters
plus M13 is way more of a synergy set than a goodstuff set unlike previous core sets - there's more of a distinct divide between cards for control and beatdown decks and therefore something like Welkin Tern can be a top 3 pick or an unplayable depending on what you're trying to do
― ciderpress, Saturday, 15 September 2012 21:18 (eleven years ago) link
I'd pick Sleep over like 60% of the cards above it, most of which are really not that great in Limited (Vampire Nocturnus seems like a good early pick until you realize that it's a vanilla 3/3 most of the time and there is only a couple of Vampires in the set)
― frogbs, Saturday, 15 September 2012 21:24 (eleven years ago) link
other rankings I'm questioning, tell me yr thoughts:
Stormtide Leviathan 2.90Gilded Lotus 3.17Sleep 3.77Chronomaton 5.86Duty-Bound Dead 5.93Krenko's Command 6.30Tormented Soul 6.50Prey Upon 6.90Encrust 7.47Courtly Provocateur 8.27
xp
― iatee, Saturday, 15 September 2012 21:26 (eleven years ago) link
Went 2-1 last night in another innistrad/dark ascension draft with red/green werewolves. Not sure I really get the love for these sets versus the general disinterest in m13 at my local store.
― Moodles, Saturday, 15 September 2012 21:26 (eleven years ago) link