how do u feel about EP's 'homage to sextus propertius'
― thomp, Saturday, 8 September 2012 10:19 (eleven years ago) link
i quite like it, though it suffers from the same feeling, that it has been written by a bore, but EP at least wants to pretend he has a feel for language.
― v for viennetta (c sharp major), Saturday, 8 September 2012 10:25 (eleven years ago) link
where BB clearly wants to pretend that he has not
i kind of love this whole "i'm translating ... BUT AM I" sub-genre, so there's that ... maybe if i could actually do latin i would feel differently
― thomp, Saturday, 8 September 2012 10:27 (eleven years ago) link
and i am inevitably harsher on BB because he lives in a world in which Anne Carson already exists
― v for viennetta (c sharp major), Saturday, 8 September 2012 10:27 (eleven years ago) link
that was a funny thing about this review here: http://www.openlettersmonthly.com/odi-et-amo/
n an ideal world, perhaps it wouldn’t be too much to expect your readers to chuckle knowingly, on the basis of their intimate familiarity with the complete oeuvre of Catullus, but we live in this one.
on the basis of my intimate familiarity with the complete oeuvre of Catullus, if you must put it like that, i find these scraps insufferable
― v for viennetta (c sharp major), Saturday, 8 September 2012 10:30 (eleven years ago) link
what's carson's catallus thing like? i've never read her, i picked up 'grief lessons' and thought it looked kind of exciting and then i lost my copy
― thomp, Saturday, 8 September 2012 10:30 (eleven years ago) link
xpost
that was re yr 'if i could actually do latin' (tbh you probably could do latin-enough-for-poetry, with a bilingual edition and a rough guide to pronunciation we all have enough tools to develop opinions on our own)
i know these poems and i have spent a lot of time thinking about these poems and as such i judge that this young man... has not.
― v for viennetta (c sharp major), Saturday, 8 September 2012 10:33 (eleven years ago) link
oh i don't know if carson has particularly done catullus? I think of her as greek-and-not-latin. (the one time i studied translation studies i did an intense compare and contrast, carson vs catullus, on sappho's phainetai moi)
it was more that she has a method of engagement with classical poetry that is so powerful, and critical, and subtle, and surely just knowing that her work exists would shame a person out of this sort of sloppiness.
― v for viennetta (c sharp major), Saturday, 8 September 2012 10:36 (eleven years ago) link
oh crap what am i saying, i've even read her catullus thesis thing, i just can't remember what went on in it any more
― v for viennetta (c sharp major), Saturday, 8 September 2012 10:38 (eleven years ago) link
'enough latin' is something i've been meaning to get around to for a while /: i started working through wheelock's latin last year but gave up after a couple weeks because my girlfriend kept ragging on me for it
― thomp, Saturday, 8 September 2012 10:39 (eleven years ago) link
(the one i have not read is the one about her brother, which is like the catullus one about the brother)
would it be more fun to have a bilingual edition of some poetry, and a dictionary, and some verb and noun tables (or a shorter latin primer), and do it that way? would you get less ragged on for that?
― v for viennetta (c sharp major), Saturday, 8 September 2012 10:42 (eleven years ago) link
doing latin poetry is basically doing the crossword
― v for viennetta (c sharp major), Saturday, 8 September 2012 10:44 (eleven years ago) link
oh we split up. i would probably have been ragged on more for doing that, she was a philologist
i don't know if i'd find that more fun? i get some kind of satisfaction out of working through dull textbooks that i don't or wouldn't from trying to do it as some kind of imaginative pursuit instead
― thomp, Saturday, 8 September 2012 10:46 (eleven years ago) link
well, the augustan stuff, these mannered young men, anyway. (medieval latin lyric is much more straightforward iirc)
or maybe like a jigsaw, you find the bits that are in the same case but scattered among the line and join them back together into something approaching sense.
cui dono lepidum novum libellumarida modo pumice expolitum
lepidum and novum and expolitum are all masculine accusatives so they are all referring to the masc acc noun libellum, but arida and pumice are feminine ablatives so they belong together in the modifying clause
to whom do i give my new witty little bookjust-now polished with dry pumice
etc
xposts oh fair enough! the dry pursuit of textbook exercises is something i recognise (i sometimes do it with maths, to check i still can)
― v for viennetta (c sharp major), Saturday, 8 September 2012 10:55 (eleven years ago) link
as I may have said before I starting doing greek to take the place of crosswords. Latin one of these days.
― woof, Saturday, 8 September 2012 11:13 (eleven years ago) link
i would probably have better luck if i replaced crosswords with greek: i don't think i have finished a cryptic in my life.
i guess what i want from a poem that makes a big deal of being a translation is that excitement of fitting things together, trying things out, working out what sounds good to you. 'this is a translation and the act of translation feels like this', not 'this is a translation and i am your translator and here is what i know'.
― v for viennetta (c sharp major), Saturday, 8 September 2012 11:27 (eleven years ago) link
wherever your griping is coming from, i don't think it would stand up against the book, which i think is really fine. i think it pretty much CONSTANTLY trades on the excitement of fitting things together, trying things out, working out what sound good to you. that open letters monthly bit focuses too much on the 'theoretical' intrusions into the text, and it's seriously misleading about them because it doesn't try to capture how naturally brown will shift in and out of different registers from poem to poem or sentence to sentence. it's inventive and playful and compelling. reading it out loud is the best - his ear for speech from specific social / practical contexts is super exact and economical.
― j., Saturday, 8 September 2012 16:31 (eleven years ago) link
I choose to not. And I don’t feel bad about it either.
Where Catullus is losing his poise in his poems (or getting them stolen), here Brown's writing is about pulling back into equilibrium and self-justification. Brown by his own account finds that the work of translation as traditionally understood threatens the integrity of the self -- as well he might, because it always has. But instead of going on into danger, come what may, he pulls back into the safe zone.
how would we ever know that augustan rome was patriarchal without the clever young men of the early 21st century to remind us
Maybe there's something in the poem which remains after the conceit that nobody realized it is gone, but we'd have to see the rest to know.
But to go by other samples, Brown (and the reviewer) have embraced the Scholasticism of our time. Brown even writes the phrase "to cancel the somatic vehicle" in apparent earnestness. He must follow the prime directive: unmask and expose what they didn't realize, but we know. So that conceit is necessary. But what to do when faced with Catullus's
I hate and I love. Why do I do this, perhaps you’ll ask.I don’t know. But I feel it happening and am tortured.
This is like a crystal of pain. Catullus has exposed himself completely. What is left for Brown to do?
I hate. I hate and. I hate “and.” I hate love. I hate questions.I’m doing it. I hate doing it. I hate “doing.” I hateI hate forts. I “hate” “forts.” I hate fortitude. I hate perhaps.Perhaps I hate? No, I hate “perhaps.” Perhaps you’ll ask why hate.
I hate forts. I “hate” “forts.” I hate fortitude. I hate perhaps.Perhaps I hate? No, I hate “perhaps.” Perhaps you’ll ask why hate.
What comes across is not hate but childish frustration. ("I hate forts"?) Brown seems to be at a loss. Then he falls back into ordinary critical prose separated by line breaks. This is what the reviewer finds most compelling, compared to Brown's "coy games" elsewhere. I'll take her word for it.
With theory we know the answers in advance, so any vertigo is that of an amusement park ride, where you get shaken up a bit and then come to rest where you started. Brown seems OK with that. It's the story he wants to tell, and he finds it interesting.
― alimosina, Sunday, 9 September 2012 19:51 (eleven years ago) link
when does catullus ever lose his poise in his poems? they're incredibly carefully crafted.
― v for viennetta (c sharp major), Sunday, 9 September 2012 20:00 (eleven years ago) link
for all he is "confessional" he is a very painstaking stylist.
― v for viennetta (c sharp major), Sunday, 9 September 2012 20:08 (eleven years ago) link
Oh agreed. But in the couplet above, the speaking subject has been taken outside himself and is in torment. Whereas Brown isn't going to get into Catullus's mind, and wants you to know that he doesn't feel bad about it. I take that as the opposite motion. It may be pragmatic but what does it leave him with to say? "I hate forts"? In a sense he's made a fort of theory which defends him from Catullus, and from failure (theory can never fail).
I wrote the above after reading Robbins on Seidel, and the contrast between Brown and Seidel was the fuel.
― alimosina, Sunday, 9 September 2012 21:09 (eleven years ago) link
i kind of love this whole "i'm translating ... BUT AM I" sub-genre, so there's that ... maybe if i could actually do latin i would feel differently― thomp, Saturday, September 8, 2012 10:27 AM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― thomp, Saturday, September 8, 2012 10:27 AM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― He revs the language like a hypersonic superbike. (bernard snowy), Sunday, 9 September 2012 21:27 (eleven years ago) link
that is also a book i enjoy! sadly my the-books-of-jack-spicer is in a box, i was about to look for it so i could start typing bits in
― thomp, Sunday, 9 September 2012 22:22 (eleven years ago) link
wait no
― thomp, Sunday, 9 September 2012 22:23 (eleven years ago) link
The dead are notoriously hard to satisfy. Mr. Spicer's mixture may please his contemporary audience or may, and this is more probable, lead him to write better poetry of his own
― thomp, Sunday, 9 September 2012 22:24 (eleven years ago) link
http://samriviere.tumblr.com/post/30660042155
― v for viennetta (c sharp major), Tuesday, 11 September 2012 10:52 (eleven years ago) link
i don't think i understand what's going on there
― thomp, Tuesday, 11 September 2012 11:21 (eleven years ago) link
(Have been reading Riviere's 81 Austerities, incidentally - strongly suspect him of being an ILxor, probably Nakhchivan)
― Stevie T, Tuesday, 11 September 2012 11:35 (eleven years ago) link
(Could also imagine Patricia Lockwood posting - think ILx has inadvertently divined the voice of 21st century poetry)
― Stevie T, Tuesday, 11 September 2012 11:38 (eleven years ago) link
I think I see what he's doing there & I enjoy that picture more than the bb Catullus trans. Never thought of that Dream Song as being in that line.
How is his book? Thinking about reading it though I haven't seen much of his work.
― woof, Tuesday, 11 September 2012 11:43 (eleven years ago) link
i guess if sounds like nakh, then sure, i'll read it.
― woof, Tuesday, 11 September 2012 11:52 (eleven years ago) link
nakh if you are sam riviere can you introduce me to harry burke why because he look intersting
― v for viennetta (c sharp major), Tuesday, 11 September 2012 12:06 (eleven years ago) link
actually i found a picture and he looks about 16? blimey. i guess i am an adult now, the bright young poets really are younger than me.
― v for viennetta (c sharp major), Tuesday, 11 September 2012 12:59 (eleven years ago) link
His work loses something in person (LOL at the Maria Minerva song)http://vimeo.com/32034539
― Stevie T, Tuesday, 11 September 2012 13:18 (eleven years ago) link
his little flat vowels
― v for viennetta (c sharp major), Tuesday, 11 September 2012 13:36 (eleven years ago) link
actually the bit where he reads out a url is pretty good.
― v for viennetta (c sharp major), Tuesday, 11 September 2012 13:37 (eleven years ago) link
best-selling poet starving in garret!
http://michaelrobbinspoet.tumblr.com/post/31385996913/in-which-i-shamefacedly-ask-my-fake-internet-friends#notes-container
― scott seward, Saturday, 15 September 2012 02:35 (eleven years ago) link
he'll pull through. good material for the next book! anti-car poems are very now and very environmentally friendly.
― scott seward, Saturday, 15 September 2012 02:36 (eleven years ago) link
oh never mind looks like he took it down. weird.
― scott seward, Saturday, 15 September 2012 02:40 (eleven years ago) link
first poems since the book came out. in poetry magazine:
Big CountryBy Michael RobbinsFiddle no further, Führer. Rome is built.It took all day. Now let us solove the world. I’m just thinking out loud.My stigmata bring out my eyes.
The smallpox uses every part of the blanket,and the forest is a lady’s purse.The Indian is a pink Chihuahua peekinghis head from the designer zipper.
Out here it’s mostly light from the fifteenthcentury slamming into the planet.I can’t see the forest for the burn unit.All the planet does is bitch bitch bitch.
I know it’s last minute but could you putout my eyes? At the subatomic level,helmeted gods help themselves to gold.Up here? The body’s an isolation ward.
― scott seward, Monday, 1 April 2013 16:55 (eleven years ago) link
That’s Incredible!By Michael RobbinsI will pull an airplane with my teethand I will pull an airplane with my hair.I write about cats. Cats, when you read this,write about me. Be the change you want to see.
I’ve legally changed my name to Whites Only.Changed it back, I should say.DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME made methe man I am today.
That, and the University of Phoenix.Old man, take a look at my life.Charles Simic, in the gloaming, with a roach,take a look at my life. I’m a lot like you.
A man stands up and says I will catcha bullet in my teeth! That’s incredible!He eats a sword, hilt first, and spitsup a million people persons.
A dolphin pulls an airplane with its blowholeand keeps the black box for itself.Bottleneck dolphins don’t even have bones,yet here we are, giving them medals ...
This is my ass. And that is a holein ground zero. I know which is which.It’s the one with the smoke pouring out.This is my handle; this is my spout.
Be MyselfBy Michael RobbinsI took back the night. Wrested itfrom the Chinese, many of whomwere shorter than me.Two billion outstretched Chinesehands, give or take a fewthousand amputees.
A cheap knockoff, the nightproved to be — Noklanot Nokia on the touchscreen.Well, even Old Peng gotta eat,Confucius say. Or maybe thatwas Cassius Clay.
In me, folks, a movable objectmeets a resistible force. I haven’tworked a day since the accidentof birth. Born of woman,my father the same. Make lovethen war. I’ll bring round the car.
These children that I spit onare immune to my consultations.I’ll have none myself. It isn’t(Write it!) a fiasco. I am small,I contain platitudes.
― scott seward, Monday, 1 April 2013 16:56 (eleven years ago) link
The Second SexBy Michael RobbinsAfter the first sex, there is no other.I stick my gender in a blenderand click send. Voilà!Your new ex-girlfriend.
You cuckold me with your husband.I move a box with Ludacris.The captain turns on, we begin our descent.Be gentle with me, I’m new to this.
I say the wrong thing. I have OCD.My obsessive compulsions are disorderly.I say the wrong thing, did I already say?I drive my dominatrix away.
The coyote drives her in a false-bottomed van.He drops her in the desert. The bluffs are tan.She’ll get a job at Chili’s picking up butts.I feel ya, Ophelia, I say to my nuts.And there is pansies. That’s for thoughts.
― scott seward, Monday, 1 April 2013 16:57 (eleven years ago) link
i wish i hadn't looked at that paris review interview before trying to read the poems. he comes off as such a dick that it kind of contaminated the 'voice' for me.
― (The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Monday, 1 April 2013 18:25 (eleven years ago) link
i am now eight units into 'teach yourself beginner's latin'.
― attempt to look intentionally nerdy, awkward or (thomp), Monday, 1 April 2013 19:40 (eleven years ago) link
I usually stall at about unit 10
― woof, Tuesday, 2 April 2013 10:22 (eleven years ago) link
okay.....nevermind...
― scott seward, Tuesday, 2 April 2013 12:04 (eleven years ago) link
no! I was happy to see the poems. They did leave me a little cold on first glance though - sounding a bit samey now. Will read more carefully later.
― woof, Tuesday, 2 April 2013 12:39 (eleven years ago) link
scott are you following michael robbins on tumblr
― attempt to look intentionally nerdy, awkward or (thomp), Tuesday, 2 April 2013 15:20 (eleven years ago) link