Pazz & Jop 2008

I thought the Knux album was a lot of fun (maybe not great in a "hip-hop" sense for all I know, but that's not what I care about -- actually, they sound really new wave to my ears); I gave it a good review in RS, of all places, so I'll take partial blame. (If I had to do my ballot over, though, it's possible I'd vote for Ashlee Simpson instead. Who also sounded really new wave, strangely enough.) No idea whether Knux crossed over to indie kids, though.

The Knux album was the only rap album in my top 20.

I don't really understand where the Knux came from, seemed like they just started showing up on blogs once they had a video for a major label single, got the album out with nonexistant airplay/buzz, and got a ton of positive reviews. Did they just send out a ton of promos?

Aside to Pete Scholtes: those rap/metal recounts were by vote, not by points, and did include you (even though I didn't have Big Jess flagged as rap yet). And no, I don't see any other singles votes for Unk's "Show Out", sorry!

I totally did not get a knux promo and I am on tons of promo lists!

This is going back days and days, but people here are seriously working on some assumed wisdom with dismissing Simon Reynolds's hyperbole about rhythm -- like this couldn't possibly have any element of rightness in it just per ... per what, received arguments? Assumptions about genre? Normal lines of partisanship?

http://tomlanesblog.blogspot.com/2009/01/country-gets-pazz-and-jop-shaft.html

I got a Knux promo, but presumably only because I had the RS assignment. No idea if anybody else did.

x-post to Nabisco

I am curious if you agree with Simon. Simon said "Vampire Weekend has more interesting rhythms than any hip-hop record I've heard these past several years." I have listened to hiphop over the past several years, I have listened to and like Vampire Weekend, I have read Simon's blog posts about rap and grime and whatever over the past few years and read some of his published articles. So while it is possible that received arguments, assumptions, and partisanship were somehow involved in me highlighting that line and disagreeing with it, I think it had more to do with the music involved and me thinking he was completely off-base.

Sure, curmudgeon, that's completely fair, and I think it's pretty clear that dude is deploying some hyperbole there and being a bit snarky about it. There's nothing at all weird about disagreeing with it -- it's just interesting to me as the sort of statement that people will kinda knee-jerk disagree with and not much think about.

I doubt it's super-literally true for Simon, but I think there's an element to it that makes total sense -- it's a somewhat rhythmically interesting record we're talking about, and as much as there's this assumption that hip-hop is by definition more interesting in rhythm than kids in indie guitar bands, I don't think it's patently crazy to suggest that what's going on with the rhythms in something like this caught your ear more than the rhythms in a crapload of hip-hop records that weren't doing anything particularly new or surprising with hip-hop rhythms. You know?

i think it just really rubbed me the wrong way as far as throwaway hyperbole goes--like, explain what you mean by "interesting rhythms," explain which rhythms on the VW record were so interesting, and explain why you couldn't find any hip-hop that was as rhythmically interesting, and then maybe we could have a conversation. the rest of reynolds' essay wasn't particularly strong either (at least i didn't think it was) so it didn't seem like much of a debate-starter.

i mean i didn't listen to much hip-hop this year but a lot of that vampire weekend album is played pretty damn straight (and i like that album, but i'm just saying).

I guess he didn't get a Knux promo either. Hee hee

SR's statement is not necessarily wrong (rap production didn't develop in any particularly notable ways this year, and most of the production trends weren't really rhythm-related), but "more interesting rhythms" is a pretty goofy trump card to pull in the way he did.

"these past several years' to be nitpicky literal implies at least 2 years.

Vampire Weekend actually do have fairly interesting rhythms for an indie-rock band (often taken from early '80s new wave bands like the English Beat and the Police, which was part of Simon's point, I think even if he didn't mention those names -- he said they were Anglophiles as much as Afrophiles, right?) What they don't have, to my ears, is especially interesting voices. And it seems to me that, even going stictly by appropriation of rhythms associated with Africa, the 2008 album by K'Naan (how many hip-hop critics voted for that, Glenn? Any??) had more going on. Also don't think Simon's point came across as hyperbole, if that's how he meant it. (I sure didn't read it that way.) But though I definitely don't agree with him (K'Naan would be the least of the reasons why, too), and I wish he'd been more specific (assume he was pushing against his word count as is), it really didn't bug me. Then again, I don't spend most of my time listening to rap, either.

for an indie-rock band

I feel like this needs to be stressed.

Yeah, that's why I put it in there.

But I mean, I actually think it was an interesting point to throw out there -- that, just maybe, hip-hop isn't where the hottest rhythmic action is going on anymore. Probably a stretch to suggest that VW are (not that he exactly said that, either), but I don't see why such a point should be off-limits. (And right, he didn't exactly spell out what "interesting" means.)

K'naan only got four votes, period:

Christian Hoard (Lil Wayne, Knux)
Keith Harris (no rap)
Max Berry (Kanye West, Lil Wayne)
Tom Hull (Roots)

I didn't listen to the K'naan because it looked super wack.

Ha ha, that's probably part of why I did listen to it. (Hip-hop could use more wackness these days.)

that, just maybe, hip-hop isn't where the hottest rhythmic action is going on anymore.

this would indeed be a point worth discussing, which makes the fact that it was a throwaway line in a piece about VW all the more irritating.

i think its a problem because the way i read 'interesting rhythms' is like him saying 'the rhythms they are taking from are more exotic to me than rap music which ive been hearing for awhile' but because as a group VW (who i have nothing against personally) took from a genre that isnt as high profile here (assuming in fact this is true, i dont recall the rhythms being particularly crazy but ill accept it for the sake of argument) its inherently more worthwhile -- not more worthwhile than, say, other indie rock bands that just take from rap music, but more worthwhile than the entirety of rap music, and its just ugh. i mean seriously what new rap did he even listen to this year other than 'a millie' and 'put a donk on it'?

i mean i know its supposed to be intentionally provocative trolling for rap heads so getting mad at it is just the angle he was going for as an irreverent critic but to me this kind of dismissive shit when im invested in a genre that matters is hopelessly corny. its like cool kid posturing, "HOT: vampire weekend. NOT: gangsta rap!"

and in the context of an essay that begins:

In an enervated year for music,

i mean yeah, he kind of lost me right there.

You know, I don't think the issue here is that VW don't have interesting rhythms, it's that their so damn prissy about them in a way (the vast majority of) your hiphop dudes would never be. In a rap song, the beats usually take an orderly, predictable rhythm, but the vocals are anything but, constantly changing rhythmic shape and focus, creating an immense variety of rhythm within one song. In a VW song, all the rhythms are more or less static, with none of the irregularities presented in most rap vocals.

...it's that they're so damn...

Well, yeah, but if I'm reading Simon right (which isn't always easy), a big part of his point is that VW's prissines is a good thing. (Don't buy that, either, but then I'm not British.)

(Though I also definitely don't think that vocal rhythms constantly changing direction for their own sake is interesting in and of itself, like hip-hop has forever now. Which is probably one reason most of the rap music I love most is really really old.) (Probably a blind spot on my own part, but still.)

this kind of dismissive shit when im invested in a genre that matters is hopelessly corny

Deej this is totally pot-kettle, though, is the whole point I'm trying to make here: surely the main reason you find the claim "dismissive" is the fact that you immediately dismiss the idea that it might be honest, leave alone correct!

(I mean, note that approximately zero people here would have that reaction if someone said "X hip-hop record was more rhythmically interesting than anything any indie-rock band has put out in years.")

Some of VW's most interesting rhythms (to me at least) are fussy 300-year-old baroque patterns that aren't so much "innovative" or "out there" but nevertheless fresh-sounding in the context of the kind of music they make.

im dismissing it because i dont believe that simon reynolds actually knows what hes talking about when it comes to 'rhythms' yeah

yeah i mean i think its fresh & sui generis for what it is but beating rap over the head w/ it is wtf

Some of VW's most interesting rhythms (to me at least) are fussy 300-year-old baroque patterns that aren't so much "innovative" or "out there" but nevertheless fresh-sounding in the context of the kind of music they make.

― Bianca Jagger (jaymc), Monday, January 26, 2009 2:11 PM Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Yeah, this aspect is underrated. Perhaps what really makes them tick is that they've taken not one, but two rhythmic traditions not usually associated with indie rock or with each other and mixed and matched them at will.

and in the context of an essay that begins:

In an enervated year for music,

i mean yeah, he kind of lost me right there.

doesn't he do this every year?

im dismissing it because i dont believe that simon reynolds actually knows what hes talking about when it comes to 'rhythms' yeah

^^this, also b/c even giving s reynolds any thought beyond mild annoyance is pointless, also b/c he's trolling really obviously

i think the reason i dismiss its honesty is because i have trouble believing someone could think this, its just a matter of perspective & a little self-awareness about that fact makes a difference --

im entirely interested in subjective writing but its almost like a parody of 'its my opinion and its no worse than anyone else's!' to the point where you just have to throw up your hands

what bothered me most about Simon's statement was the implication that just because VW have listened to a couple of African records (which he plainly hasn't or he wouldn't be making such a big deal about it) they are automatically given credit for rhythmic innovation. and maybe he's right (insofar as indie-rock bands are concerned). but why the fuck bring hip hop into the discussion? could it be cause he doesn't know fuckall about African music? gee, i wonder?

i mean nabisco tbh im not entirely sure what your point here is -- that i should be nicer about it, because hes just explaining his perspective? imo the thing about having the kind of soapbox he does is that he cant get away with shit that my friends might say in ignorance just bcuz they arent into music. so to an extent i dont really have a problem with this kind of dismissiveness if its purely about politeness or respecting his honest impressions, thats what he thinks, fine. but its stated from what i can tell like its supposed to provoke these kinds of reactions, a statement wherein a single indie pop band is more valuable than an entire genre, where he sees endless variations w/in this narrow brand of music, and an entire genre is basically one endless recitation of a repetitive style. There are plenty of rap acts subtly introducing random influences across the board to the same degree vampire weekend introduced a few hokey african rhythms.

if your point on the other hand is that hes making a legitimate argument that you agree w/ to some degree id like to hear more

i still cant get over how many people hear rap music as all the same but rock music is just this perfect vessel for influences from across the spectrum.

I guess part of why I'm seizing on this has nothing to do with Reynolds or Vampire Weekend, and just has to do with this sense I've had lately that being "rhythmically interesting" is this unexamined thing that people ascribe via knee-jerk to hip-hop, dance music, and pop, and assume via knee-jerk is lacking in rock music, often in a way that strikes me as strangely lazy. I'm not saying anyone's doing that here, for what it's worth. But I can actually remember, when the VW album was first going around, this conversation where a dance-music person casually said it was rhythmically dull -- which I guess kicked off a year during which I became increasingly convinced that people just say stuff like that based of signifiers that have nothing to do with rhythm. And I guess that makes my sympathetic to Simon tweaking that tendency by saying a prissy indie-rock record might be doing more with its rhythms than stuff in the genre people where people are always unthinkingly praising alleged rhythmic complexities just by rote.

xpost - wrote that before your last two posts, deej, but one of them actually reminds me of what I'm saying bugs me -- people who claim to hear rock music as somehow not having rhythms, whereas (say) any kind of electronic dance music is somehow rhythmically sophisticated, even the stuff that is boneheadedly simple and not attempting to be anything else!

Oh, and this:

the implication that just because VW have listened to a couple of African records ... they are automatically given credit for rhythmic innovation

^^ I do not think this is why people think of that album as rhythmically interesting! It is not just "they have jacked a rhythm from a King Sunny Ade record = they are brilliant" -- it's that the actual way they write and play songs involves pretty deft handling of rhythm. (I mean this in about the same way you'd say they were good at handling melodies -- meaning not that they're innovative or new, but that they deal with the stuff well and do entertaining things with it!)

there's rock and there's rock. there's Zep and Can and the Heads, and then there's R.E.M. and all the suffocating indie scum they spawned (har, j/k there).

ok i actually agree w/ you though to some degree -- more because ive noticed a lot of times 'critics' (i guess im thinking more, uh, bloggers, or random ppl i hear at reckless talking about how great pop rap is) shortchange/misunderstand what IS interesting about a rap song by short-cutting their way to "rhythmically crazy" or something like that -- that in an effort to prop up a song you end up w/ an inaccurate caricature

anywayz while i recognize the trend you're describing i dont think defending simon here is a good time to come out w/ that point just because his sentence just seems like one in a long line of derogatitis to me --

and incidently i said 'a few hokey african rhythms' in a definite dishonest attempt to troll/be provocative rather than suggest rock music cant be rhythmically interesting

no argument there.

xp

and again to be clear im not shitting on VW or arguing down their worth, ive heard their stuff and it sounded perfectly fine to me -- but this hierarchical comparative stuff is just awful criticism imo

kinda surprised to hear Vampire Weekend's drummer referred to as "deft."

though maybe people hear tricky indie where i hear clumsy police

yeah their drummer is not all that. good band tho, good record, and i liked SR's defense of it. higher education has always been the elephant in the living room of indie rock; it seemed to me like a good & immediately legible idea to launch into that, on a formal/conceptual level. i was genuinely baffled to see critics of vampire weekend's age (i assume) launching into a retread of the paul simon wars, like, that's the point of this record, ppl?

xp I think you're kind of arguing against a strawman here. Arguing that they make deft use of rhythm in their songs and arguing that they are super-tight rhythmically as players (the latter of which no one here has done) are two different things.

i dunno how you make deft use of rhythm with a shitty drummer but ok if you say so.

other instruments play in rhythm too, interestingly enough