the nascent appeal of managerial competency

this summer brought a huge leap fwd in the epl tho, in terms of a changing of the guard.

maybe

steve clarke seems to have surprised a lot of people but west brom have generally hired (and fired) well since, mowbray, di matteo and hodgson

swansea too did well to avoid panicking and giving it to curbishley or someone...but then they were building on martinez and rodgers

tottenham could have gone for a more old school manager in moyes but chose avb (though that neglects what an adaptable thinker moyes is)

i like the way domestic and foreign managers don't seem to be separate tribes any more, rodgers possesses the skills/ideology that you used to only find abroad, or you can appoint a lazy chancer like sven who is more inculcated into the english old boys club than anyone

yeah sven is p much archetype 'english' manager

oh hull, i never noticed you took on that prat.

bar hughes, pulis and big sam, the premiership is looking p decently stocked of intrestng managers imo, even the ones who look like they may have a shitty season (houghton, adkins, avb, lambert) at least seem to have a bit of integrity and understanding of what they are trying to do. it may not correspond with what i like about the game or anything near success for them, but at least it isn't a breed dickhead chancers

judgement reserved on avb tbph, chelsea may have been a fluke, but then so may porto

gotta admit i'm still struggling to list all 20 teams in the epl this season let alone remember eg clarke is a manager in this league. lots of 'oh...yeeeah' moments

stretching right now to remember who this clarke is.

oh that guy.

ikr?

gotta admit i'm still struggling to list all 20 teams in the epl this season let alone remember eg clarke is a manager in this league. lots of 'oh...yeeeah' moments

― Randy Carol (darraghmac), Saturday, 1 September 2012 19:46 (28 minutes ago)

really since venkys left i think we all just lost the love

bar hughes, pulis and big sam, the premiership is looking p decently stocked of intrestng managers imo, even the ones who look like they may have a shitty season (houghton, adkins, avb, lambert) at least seem to have a bit of integrity and understanding of what they are trying to do. it may not correspond with what i like about the game or anything near success for them, but at least it isn't a breed dickhead chancers

― a hoy hoy, Saturday, September 1, 2012 6:39 PM (35 minutes ago)

yeah pretty much

what about mcdermott? idk him at all

i really should have put him in instead of avb, but BANTAH and all

reading don't play esp enticing or exotic football but if it wasn't for a few gk cock ups and an offside goal they'd already look like a steady midtable team. mcdermott had a better season than reading or anyone last season, by which i mean he coached a kinda hopeless boring lot to an insane clean sheet record and winning games. he could turn out a moyes type imo - he won't bring any special new ideas or be even v memorable but he looks v good at his job

http://i.imgur.com/HUgwt.jpg?1

rmde at scandalized bawheids going on abt ~thuggery~ directed at fucking stoke players

otm

Nevertheless, it is interesting to consider that a club such as Porto readily appointed Villas-Boas while Burnley discarded him as too cerebral. Fletcher's explanation that Villas-Boas's language and concepts were too complex to be understood by the club's players appears to be based on an assumption that football is a simple game for simple people. It's not just that his ideas were deemed overelaborate, it's also that the players were not considered to have the faculties to understand these ideas.

From this perspective, Burnley's dismissive attitude towards Villas-Boas's language may be more reflective of a clash in footballing culture. And this culture clash is not necessarily one that opposes the British to their continental counterparts. The same attitude can be seen with regard to Brendan Rodgers, a manager who only last season had been praised for his progressive views on football, but whose insistence on sticking to a particular tactical philosophy in post-match interviews appears to be wearing thin with some fans.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2012/dec/20/andre-villas-boas-avbinglish

that's a really good article, the comparison with mourinho is quite succinct too

yeah i'll read the rest of it later, but it's a little too fukn succinct to cosily/smugly suggest that the reason fans are falling out with rodgers is that they are pigshit-ignorant of how awesome his philosophy is as opposed to being more than sufficiently cognitive to spot that it's not fucking working and he's not proving in any way adept at adapting it.

avb's vocab is immense

The British press's favourite managers, Redknapp and Fergie, pretty much never talk about tactics, but no one gets mocked as mercilessly as a loser who also doesn't appear to know what they're doing - Keegan, Ince etc.

Rogers is doing alright.

deems its not about rodgers' success or otherwise it's about the communication

most managers in his position would be giving it the digging in no surrender etc stuff but he is just sticking to a script, which may be brave or foolhardy or neither but is still fairly distinctive

so would be the wearing of a green feather boa in all public engagements, no reason to laud it at the expense of the perceived footballing intelligence of the masses

P'shaw, perceived footballing intelligence - this is just the rules of the playground. Christian Gross would've been bullied in any British school, Tony Pulis would not. Mourinho would be the pied piper anywhere. Sure you can do it differently, but you're pulling off a highwire act and when you stumble, the little rats pounce.

lol deems you are too clever to be giving this the fanfare for the common man treatment

the article is about the language used by managers, it has nothing to do with whether joe allen is worth £15m or jose enrique is a winger, nor is it laudatory about rodgers (though it is guardedly so re vyash bwash)

you will have known this by the time you have read the damn thing

article also implies that those avatars of plebeian knuckle dragging, the players themselves, are more intelligent than the mill-owner ideology of trad british fitba hierarchy would allow

ffs ok i'll read it

havent seen an irish this crap at reading since noel hunt

Boom

glass everywhere, inla denying involvement

klats otm, the article gets right to the point of mourinho and then seems to pass it by as it were just smoke & mirrors

communication (w/ players and media) is manipulation is managing

not to mention communication not just being talking a good teleprompter game but the subconscious inculcation of what it is u want

results is results, brit footer was happy to wet itself over rodgers when the wins rolled in, less so when replaced by indifferent lack of penetration and leadership conference guff

maybe 'communication' is more valued here than in the countries that produced van gaal, benitez or mancini because managers are omnipotent (no sporting directors), often entrenched for years and the cult of the leader is more numinous

see all of the fuss about captains -- ~the armband~ as metonym for a set of cherished values compared to countries where it is essentially an honorific function exercised in turn by the most senior players

ferguson and mourinho are the best at all of this but they are also great at the more technical stuff

i think villas boas would seem quite distinctive in most of europe, even where there have been studious managers obsessed with discussing tactics like zeman or bielsa or whoever

v-b is not really a stunningly innovative tactician, he is just a clever articulate ardent young manager who is happy to talk fairly openly with the media and likes to assume that are at the same level and interested in the same things

they are happy to play dumb and gently patronize him as an uppity dork with questionable emotional resilience and lack of 'football man' background, while hedging slightly cuz he has shown signs of significant talent and may well turn out to be successful here

rodgers seems quite different temperamentally, a bit more of a charismatic than v-b, with his weird soulful lugubrious intonations about character and slightly mawkish avuncularity towards his players

he has the kind of absracted 'natural confidence' that public schools try to instill whereas insofar as v-b is confident it's as a function of his demonstrated aptitudes and achievements, so when chelsea started playing like shit he looked like a cornered fox

if deems is right and the liverpool ship sinks, then rodgers will still be cooing and spewing portentous folk wisdom as the rats jump into sea

I'm sitting absolutely cunted in a pub, thinking about a girl who's just left for Blackpool, feeling more or less festively despondent, and just declared to myself "fantastic post". An accolade that will be rigging down the pisser of this Brentford pub for years to come. Karleigh Osborne says hello.

ringing.

She will come back. Believe.

I'm trying to upload a photo a photo of Karleigh Osborne's signed Brentford shirt. it's not going v well because I can't operate my phone v easily.

fantastic post

xxxp

i'm not declaring rodgers a certain failure i'm merely saying that the collegiately cosy insistence that there is unquestioned ~progress~ happening along some defined line towards 'success' is hardly a bedrock position.

No i've not read it yet fuck off

surely nakh is avoiding the concept of "progress" and saying that here is an example of the notion of non typical non fatalistic manager speak, admittedly as self-sustaining in its own way as the nugatory crypto-philosophical content of... and I can't remember the anti-Rodgers name I was going to use. totally arseoled tbqf.

I can't believe I'm not the only person on ILX with a signed Karleigh Osborne shirt. What do you have to do to carve out yr own niche, ffs.

Find Rodgers a bit creepy if I'm honest.

http://e1.365dm.com/12/11/660x350/Brendan_2859497.jpg

http://i2.wp.com/metrouk2.files.wordpress.com/2012/12/rodgers.png?w=544

you're not going to condemn him for that, come on

I can't believe I'm not the only person on ILX with a signed Karleigh Osborne shirt. What do you have to do to carve out yr own niche, ffs.

― oppet, Saturday, December 22, 2012 11:13 AM (1 hour ago) Bookmark

http://i1142.photobucket.com/albums/n601/gamalielratsey/2012-12-21192926_zps7d4b3cf6.jpg

only in the pub. speaking of which, apologies for sprawling all over this thread last night, bursting into conversation with blurred and noisy incoherence, while people look embarrassed into their pints.

you assholes don't post enough ffs

surely nakh is avoiding the concept of "progress" and saying that here is an example of the notion of non typical non fatalistic manager speak, admittedly as self-sustaining in its own way as the nugatory crypto-philosophical content of... and I can't remember the anti-Rodgers name I was going to use. totally arseoled tbqf.

I see where i went wrong. It was using the word 'crypto' after 'nugatory' - what i meant (hmmm) was 'admittedly as self-sustaining in its own way as the nugatory philosophical content of a.. well a more conventional manager' - I think the grinding poverty of Pulis's interviews meant he was foremost in what there was of my mind. That said of course, their to be fair at the end of the day 'common sense' formulations provide a good shield in interviews (articulating thought is open to analysis), while speaking in terms that are too dead to be seriously offensive to most people, unless they are particularly alert to the irritations of monotony and whingeing about refs. These formulations do not in themselves bespeak any meagreness of thought, but it can be hard to tell a hawk from a handsaw, or an Arry from a Pulis.

In different ways AVB and BR discard the shield and open themselves up with either Quixotic folly or inspired genius, depending on whether they're successful or not. The nature of the success probably also has to reflect their articulation of it, but then again, to a certain extent, if the nature of failure or lack conspicuous success reflects the manager's articulation of their vision, then it seems to me they're likely to be cut more slack than a more guarded manager.

The perception of managerial competency then has something to do with the age old problem of rhetoric as put forward by Quintilian - how you inescapably ensure good rhetoric is also good truth/morally good (so consequently the better it is, the truer/morally better it is).

Following that line suggests that despite the rather canny or prudent approach of the platonic ideal of a Scottish manager (say), in fact yer AVBs and yer BRs may, despite appearances, actually have a greater inherent strength/longevity - if they can get project their rhetoric (rhetoric in the strongest sense, as accurately reflective of thought) onto the team.

At the end of the day it's a results game tbqf tho and 'ah that man's reach shd exceed his grasp' is not an argument that will be tolerated for long.

hmm. now, i'll be thinking the alcohol hasn't quite worn off. I'm hieing me awae to the Natural HIstory Museum.

*if they can get project their rhetoric

breaking my curfew again (actually I'm thinking of breaking it for good but with a different username, only boards viewed ILB, ILM and ILF) to ask, are you Gamaliel Ratsey? just wondrin yknow. also your posts itt have been wonderful as usual

that's him and yeah, he has been appointed doyen of ILB (is that honorific or plenipotentiary idk?)

lmao at that photo of rodgers titsniffing

kind of imagine him spending a lot of time on away trips sitting in underlit corners of hotel bars

you might not speak english but with love, just like football, the language is international