slowdive: classic or dud?

Oh and pinnacle of shoegaze = Moose's first two EPs, imho. Hard to believe that 20 years after the fact people are still arguing about what shoegazing is / was.

Pale Saints toured with and had intra-band links to Lush! Hence their STCI connection. But Lush are another band who have been unfortunately and unfairly pushed down the shoegaze canon.

As shoegazing was at its height in 91 they really weren't there, their Northern slant meant they weren't seen to be with the Ride / Slowdive / Chapterhouse crowd. Certainly the inkies at the time never mentioned them in the same breath as the other "Scene that celebrates itself" bands

The way I recall it, it was Ride - Ride EP, Lush - Mad Love EP, and Pale Saints - The Comforts of Madness all released in quick succession at the start of 1990 and shown on Snub TV and those bands were often talked about together. The rest came later.

Don't you think Poliopolice was using the word "pretending" in hindsight? Like now that he realized he is very over those bands and his change of heart makes him feel like he was fooling himself the whole time. Just a guess. I mean when I hear people say pretend in that context they generally aren't letting you in to some conscious poseuring they'd participated in at some point.

yeah, you're taking it too literally. by the time i was into this stuff, the whole shoegaze thing was over by nearly a decade-- therefore, not en vogue at all. when i said 'pretend', it's not that i was trying to attach myself to a scene (because there was none by then), but that i was trying hard to appreciate that which was described to me as great examples of that genre after having gotten heavily into MBV and Medicine first. for that reason, i wanted to like Ride and Pale Saints so much, until i discovered, after much effort and money wasted, that there was really not much depth or staying power to most of them; they were just bands whose names were repeated, perhaps because there simply weren't that many notable names in the genre to begin with.

so does this mean, as you charge, that i don't like really shoegaze because i think the vast majority of bands in that genre were kind of bad, and thus i'm a shoegaze poseur and have no credibility? i'm willing to concede that some people might think that, but as least i can honestly say that i spent an extended period exploring the genre thoroughly, and drew my own conclusion that most of it really isn't that good. that's just my opinion; no one has to agree with it!

No, what I'm trying to get through to you is that "I don't like this" is not the same as "this is bad."

Saying "this band has no staying power" when there are people ITT who still get those records out occasionally, 20 years later, is just a tad of an arrogant thing to say. It's fine for you to not like it. But you don't get to redefine the boundaries of a genre that was established 20 years ago, just to suit your particular tastes.

No, what I'm trying to get through to you is that "I don't like this" is not the same as "this is bad."

Yes it is. When someone says "this is bad", it is implicit that what they are really saying is "I don't like this." All opinions are relative.

Did I miss something? When did Poliopolice try to change everyone's opinion about shoegaze? Is he also the one forcing Slowdive to reunite? Poliopolice, just let shoegaze be!

But seriously he is just talking about his own opinions on shoegaze. As much as I disagree about the horrible things he says about Swervedriver!

Shoegaze isn't really a genre tho

Yes it is. When someone says "this is bad", it is implicit that what they are really saying is "I don't like this." All opinions are relative.

It's like squares and rectangles. All squares are rectangles---not all rectangles are squares.

If you say, "This is bad," then you are always saying, "I don't like this." (Although, I would argue against that.)

However, when you say, "I don't like this," you aren't always saying, "This is bad."

Katy Perry is bad = I don't like Katy Perry.

I don't like Led Zeppelin /= Led Zeppelin is bad.

...I'm just arguing to argue.

droney = good thing, boring = good thing, repetitive = good thing, mindless prettiness = good thing, sexless = good thing, middle class = pretty meaningless thing in relation to music

At this point I would pay good money to see see slowdive play a full reunion set consisting entirely of them arguing about taste and the semantics of not liking things. And I would pay even more if I knew Neil halstead didn't want to do it.

Like

A like is like a like

At this point I would pay good money to see see slowdive play a full reunion set consisting entirely of them arguing about taste and the semantics of not liking things. And I would pay even more if I knew Neil halstead didn't want to do it.

"Hi, we're Slowdive. We really don't want to play this show, so here's Pygmalion in its entirety."

I think you missed a joke somewhere down the line.

> The way I recall it, it was Ride - Ride EP, Lush - Mad Love EP, and Pale Saints - The Comforts of Madness all released in quick succession at the start of 1990 and shown on Snub TV and those bands were often talked about together. The rest came later.

Ride and Pale Saints played together (along with Teenage Fanclub and Pastels) at ULU (17 nov '89) just before those first eps and toured together afterwards (i think) to the point where ride covered Sight Of You on their first peel session (feb 1990)

but this:

"Also Spoonfed Hybrid >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mojave 3."

is a pile of wrong 8)

No, what I'm trying to get through to you is that "I don't like this" is not the same as "this is bad."

I don't disagree with you-- and honestly i'm finding it a little perplexing that you think i'm trying to tag all the wikipedia articles for Pale Saints and Swervedriver with the category "Objectively Bad Artists from the 90s." it's just an opinion; you are free to disagree, just as all people are free to disagree about anything. i'm fine with admitting that my opinion on anything is not the be-all-end-all, and that i may have wrongly maligned Chapterhouse. :)

Nevertheless, I think it's only fair to point out that your line of argument would also hold that guys like Thomas Kinkade are good artists-- it's just that people who don't like Kinkade don't like that kind of art. I'm actually quite fine with this; I consider art completely subjective. Even if 100% people think it's terrible, it's still subjective to me because there's no objective way to measure artistic quality. I've actually had people try to convince me that Thomas Kinkade is objectively bad; i find this proposition ridiculous.

"you're not allowed not to reform" lol call the whaaammbulance

This is all very entertaining. I might have to listen to some of these records again later. As someone who always thought there was little interesting about Slowdive after Alison and She Calls, I really should listen again to Pygmalion. Is there any substance to the reforming thing, or are you all just winding each other up? I forget.

Chapterhouse were bad bad, though, yeah?

pygmalion is incredible. "rutti" is the best opening track on any album EVER

I know Pygmalion gets most of the hipster love but for me the second album is the one.

Interesting. I don't remember any of it being as stunning as those first magnificent EPs. I shall listen again.

Hipsters don't tend to know what a Slowdive is at all in my experience.

All three are great albums, and they are all very different from each other.

Yes, Rutti is lovely and sounds a lot like "Laughing Stock" TT.

Chapterhouse were bad bad, though, yeah?

― kraudive, Friday, August 31, 2012 3:27 PM (3 hours ago)

No "Whirlpool" is great!

Ride and Pale Saints played together (along with Teenage Fanclub and Pastels) at ULU (17 nov '89)

There's a pic from this gig in the booklet of Deep Fried Fanclub and I frequently used to cry myself to sleep in the late 90s that I was born 5 years too late.

That does sound incredible. I saw Ride touring Going Blank Again in 91 - it was my first proper gig. Looking back they weren't so great. I thought for a long time Ride didn't ever really cut it live but I've read so many people say different that I guess I must have caught them on an off night.

I never saw Slowdive and demand they come back NOW to show me how good they were.

Oh God Avalyn I & II are so great.

I think I wrote on another thread that Avalyn II sounds very, very good on the wrong speed - 33 instead of at 45.

I don't remember any of it being as stunning as those first magnificent EPs.

the early stuff, though i like it, sometimes gets really close to being borderline new-agey

I saw Ride touring Going Blank Again in 91

Must have been 92 (or not Going Blank Again)

https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/1013169_636582649685551_2058742074_n.jpg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZhygqZr2MA

My favourite of the unreleased stuff.

will we remember this in the near future as the first step towards Slowdive's return? Anyway great stuff from Neil, didn't expect it from him at this stage

http://www.spin.com/articles/black-hearted-brother-i-dont-mean-to-wonder-stream/

no interest, really?

you know what these lot are like

I'd be plenty interested in a Slowdive reunion but I don't necessarily think this presages it

i quite like it, though i probably need to spend more time with it. some of the production choices seem a little odd.

It's really nice to hear THAT sound in a new context, I'll certainly check it out.

I looked up Rachel and she's got her hands full with a special needs child, unclear if she's doing it as a single mom.

also the whole health problems thing

yeah Rachel seems to have been dealt a pretty difficult hand in life - not sure she could ever get back to touring

I like this band; they are the kind of good, dreamy/hazy-sounding-but-not-in-a-dull-or-half-assed-way music that I cite when my bad-taste-having hipster friends accuse me of backwardness for not liking yellow beach dream or w/etf

this spring I came to appreciate "Country Rain", which I had previously overlooked, via going thru my itunes for songs about rain—it cheered me up so much, I had to get stoned to properly appreciate my own feelings

Looks like Neil and Rachel are doing a couple of shows together:

http://www.creation-records.com/slowdive-members-reunite-for-london-gigs/

Aaand... they're sold out already.

:-/

I love how everyone's screaming about this being a Slowdive 'reunion' of sorts across the web when I'm all "Uh...probably just Mojave 3 songs, guys." Not that I mind those at all!

"(i don't mean to) wonder" sounds way more wall of gaze than any mojave 3 though