black and white footage, lance riding his bike on a drizzly day through (let's say) san francisco, getting a lot of evil eyes from people. no VO, just echo-laden snippets of commenters talking about him being a fraud, how he could never have won the tour w/o cheating, etc. lance turns a corner and before him is california street, leading up to nob hill. one of the steepest streets in the city. lance grits his teeth and begins riding up as the voices all blur together and people walking past stop and stare. as he gets higher, people begin to cheer. eventually he gets to the top and turns around to look back at the city for a moment before riding on. "WINNERS NEVER QUIT"blacknike swirl― omar little, Tuesday, August 28, 2012 1:48 PM (47 minutes ago)
black
nike swirl
― omar little, Tuesday, August 28, 2012 1:48 PM (47 minutes ago)
There once existed footage of Lance with semi-liquid diarrhea* streaming out of his shorts at the 2001 San Francisco Gran Prix while he was getting dropped on the Fillmore St. climb before abandoning the race, but after a couple quasi-SFW searches, I don't think it's up anymore.
*G-I distress is an unfortunate byproduct of blood doping.
― lil queequeg (peter grasswich), Tuesday, 28 August 2012 22:10 (eleven years ago) link
To be fair, GI distress is also an unfortunate byproduct of intense physical exertion.
― One Way Ticket on the 1277 Express (Bill Magill), Wednesday, 29 August 2012 13:43 (eleven years ago) link
Surprised that LeMond has had the good sense to stay quiet on this.
I think he did give an opinion some time ago but was threatened by Armstrong to shut up?
Anyway I never liked the guy so quite happy he got his comeuppance (?).
― Nathalie (stevienixed), Wednesday, 29 August 2012 17:16 (eleven years ago) link
Yeah I think if Armstrong was a mere cheater it would be different but for years he's been on that "snitches get stitches" vendetta
― omar little, Wednesday, 29 August 2012 17:28 (eleven years ago) link
^^^p much
― catbus otm (gbx), Wednesday, 29 August 2012 20:29 (eleven years ago) link
also his whole carefully crafted heroic persona is so repulsive
― lag∞n, Wednesday, 29 August 2012 20:52 (eleven years ago) link
My neighbour (who shares my hatred of all things Lance) said that he didn't have the build to be a climber, yet he managed to be the fastest climber during one particular tour. Can anyone say this is true (or false)?
Also, I hate this whole "everyone cheats" defense line.
― Nathalie (stevienixed), Thursday, 30 August 2012 14:22 (eleven years ago) link
And yes the whole heroic persona is indeed vomit inducing.
"everyone cheats" = why the int'l pro level of the sport fucking sucks
― the late great, Thursday, 30 August 2012 14:23 (eleven years ago) link
I agree. It sucks the joy out of watching it tbh. But I still hate when people use it as an excuse (for Lance or any other top cyclist).
― Nathalie (stevienixed), Thursday, 30 August 2012 14:25 (eleven years ago) link
lance armstrong was in montreal yesterday, should i have said something?
― Author ~ Coach ~ Goddess (s1ocki), Thursday, 30 August 2012 14:25 (eleven years ago) link
^it doesnt bother me.
― One Way Ticket on the 1277 Express (Bill Magill), Thursday, 30 August 2012 14:27 (eleven years ago) link
yeah, as a sports fan it doesn't really bother me that the athletes take performance enhancing drugs.
― aspiring barkitect (silverfish), Thursday, 30 August 2012 14:59 (eleven years ago) link
as a drug fan however
― Author ~ Coach ~ Goddess (s1ocki), Thursday, 30 August 2012 15:00 (eleven years ago) link
Me either. I want to see super athletes that have amazing skills that mere mortals can only dream about. The problem with doping is that everyone should get to do it.
― Jeff, Thursday, 30 August 2012 15:00 (eleven years ago) link
i've kinda moved into not caring about it since I admitted to myself that I straight up loved the excitement and anticipation of Barry Bonds at bats. Even more so when he would only get pitched to about once a game. The year the Giants went to the WS towards the end of his career, that whole post-season with Bonds was great.
― pandemic, Thursday, 30 August 2012 15:02 (eleven years ago) link
it doesn't really bother me that much anymore esp in baseball bcuz there's not much evidence that it helps in a significant way but that doesn't change that lance armstrong is historic douche
― young money color me badd (J0rdan S.), Thursday, 30 August 2012 15:03 (eleven years ago) link
I mean cheating has always been part of sports and I think actually one of the more interesting aspects of professional sports. There's this risk assessment of evaluating the odds of being caught versus potential gains if not caught that's really interesting to think about.
― aspiring barkitect (silverfish), Thursday, 30 August 2012 15:03 (eleven years ago) link
not really
― young money color me badd (J0rdan S.), Thursday, 30 August 2012 15:04 (eleven years ago) link
"Me either. I want to see super athletes that have amazing skills that mere mortals can only dream about. The problem with doping is that everyone should get to do it."
Uh no that's not the "only problem" with doping. As the interview above pointed out the real problem is that athletic competition becomes about anatomic brinkmanship, who is more willing to do a potentially damaging/deadly thing to do their body in order to succeed. That's not why most non-sadists watch sports.
― Fig On A Plate Cart (Alex in SF), Thursday, 30 August 2012 15:05 (eleven years ago) link
^^
i can't speak to cycling really bcuz it's not something i've ever followed BUT if steroids in baseball (for instance) turned every player that used roids into a hall of famer than it would be a pretty stupid thing. but that doesn't happen, which in turn makes using steroids themselves stupid.
― young money color me badd (J0rdan S.), Thursday, 30 August 2012 15:07 (eleven years ago) link
This interview btw: http://www.bicycling.com/print/67431
― Fig On A Plate Cart (Alex in SF), Thursday, 30 August 2012 15:07 (eleven years ago) link
the relevant section
If you have one rider who has small muscles and one who has very big muscles, the rider with big muscles can produce a lot of torque and power, but he can’t sustain it because the muscles don’t get enough oxygen. The guy with small muscles, he can’t produce as much torque but he can ride a long time. If EPO is detectable and steroids aren’t, the little skinny guy might make greater gains by doping than the big muscular guy. But if EPO is undetectable and steroids are, the little guy is screwed. So whatever is going on, you never end up where it’s a level playing field—it’s just whatever your physiology happens to be adapted to. So you make everything legal; you can do whatever. There’s only so many drugs invented, so the winner is whose physiology is most adaptable to having 50 things in them. It never ends up that who the best athlete is wins if you just let everyone do it. Second, what about people who, even if it is legal, have health or moral concerns about it. So you say, ‘Hey guys, this is legal.’ And someone asks, “Wait, what are the long-term health consequences?’ ‘Well you could grow a horn out of your head, but if you want to do this, you have to dope.’ So you eliminate a lot of talented athletes who don’t want to do that. Because if you do make everything legal, believe me, some people are going to push things way beyond where they are now. So some people will say no to what is essentially suicide. So is the winner then the best athlete? No, it’s the guy who’s willing to risk his health more than anyone else.
Second, what about people who, even if it is legal, have health or moral concerns about it. So you say, ‘Hey guys, this is legal.’ And someone asks, “Wait, what are the long-term health consequences?’ ‘Well you could grow a horn out of your head, but if you want to do this, you have to dope.’ So you eliminate a lot of talented athletes who don’t want to do that. Because if you do make everything legal, believe me, some people are going to push things way beyond where they are now. So some people will say no to what is essentially suicide. So is the winner then the best athlete? No, it’s the guy who’s willing to risk his health more than anyone else.
― wk, Thursday, 30 August 2012 15:18 (eleven years ago) link
what drugs are these guys taking? i still can't do my commute in under 30 minutes
― Crackle Box, Thursday, 30 August 2012 15:24 (eleven years ago) link
― Jeff, Thursday, August 30, 2012 11:00 AM (46 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
agree
― One Way Ticket on the 1277 Express (Bill Magill), Thursday, 30 August 2012 15:47 (eleven years ago) link
ahahaha of course
― young money color me badd (J0rdan S.), Thursday, 30 August 2012 15:48 (eleven years ago) link
actually reminds me of the deal with helmets in hockey. people would rather wear them, but if others aren't wearing them, you're at a disadvantage because they have better peripheral vision. so everyone stops wearing them and is worse off. by mandating helmets, the NHL achieved what the players actually wanted but couldn't manage themselves, solving a prisoners dilemma problem.
― hot slag (lukas), Thursday, 30 August 2012 16:18 (eleven years ago) link
― young money color me badd (J0rdan S.), Thursday, August 30, 2012 11:07 AM (3 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
dont really want to get into this but why do people always use this so obviously fallacious argument, steroids dont have to turn every player into a hall of famer to improve performance, or is it just a coincidence that all the doods who smashed roger maris single season hr record were juicing, i mean being strong helps w/baseball and other sport fyi, steroids enhance athletic performance, plz proceed w/yr argument from that assumption
― lag∞n, Thursday, 30 August 2012 18:24 (eleven years ago) link
there are also plenty of players who have roided until their balls were the size of pennies & it never amounted to shit
― young money color me badd (J0rdan S.), Thursday, 30 August 2012 18:26 (eleven years ago) link
are u srsly making this argument because it is epically dumb
― lag∞n, Thursday, 30 August 2012 18:27 (eleven years ago) link
Phil Liggett claiming "agents from a particular agency" tried to bribe witnesses to testify against Lance.http://inrng.com/2012/08/can-liggett-save-armstrong/D. Millar - "Everybody should watch the @PhilLiggett interview. For me he is not the "Voice of Cycling"."
― zappi, Thursday, 30 August 2012 18:33 (eleven years ago) link
lolNed Boulting @nedboultingFor the record, @PhilLiggett and I have very different views. I don't agree with him about Lance Armstrong. And it's probably mutual.
― zappi, Thursday, 30 August 2012 18:37 (eleven years ago) link
Don't think this has been posted yet:http://www.sportsscientists.com/2012/08/the-armstrong-fallout-thoughts-and.html
― I've been to Suffolk (Nasty, Brutish & Short), Thursday, 30 August 2012 19:41 (eleven years ago) link
AUSTIN, Texas -- Tyler Hamilton says Lance Armstrong gave him an illegal blood booster at his house before the 1999 Tour de France and the two teammates compared notes on using performance-enhancing drugs as far back as 1998.
Hamilton makes the allegations in his book, "The Secret Race. Inside the Hidden World of the Tour de France, Doping, Cover-ups and Winning at All Costs," set to be published Sept. 5. The Associated Press purchased a copy Thursday. Armstrong agent Bill Stapleton did not immediately respond to a request for comment
Hamilton and Armstrong rode together on the U.S. Postal Service team.
Armstrong has long denied doping but last week chose not to fight drug charges made by the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency. USADA has erased 14 years of Armstrong's competitive results, including his seven Tour de France titles.
― omar little, Thursday, 30 August 2012 23:05 (eleven years ago) link
key from NBS' link
Let me now turn my attention to four of the common questions and retorts that seem to have arisen:1. "Lance passed 500 tests. He must be innocent"This is straight from the press release, because it's been Armstrong's most used retort to the doping question. Two things:First, there is no way he was tested 500 times. DimSpace has compiled a record of all the possible tests Armstrong may have been subjected to, with over-estimates, and it comes to 236. So there's more than a little hype in that number that started at 400, then hit 500, and just like that fish your uncle caught on his summer vacation in 1997 grew in size with every story-telling, ended up around the 600 mark.Nevertheless, 236 is an impressive number to pass, so how is it possible? Well, here's a list of names - Marion Jones, Tim Montgomery, Dwain Chambers, Ivan Basso, Jan Ullrich, Valverde. That's just six names of athletes who also doped for very long periods without failing a test. Some were caught eventually (Chambers & Montgomery) because a test was developed for a drug called THG based on a tip-off. It then emerged that Chambers had doped for years, with everything, avoiding detection. Ullrich went down because of good old-fashioned investigative work that discovered blood bags in a clinic. Marion Jones was never caught. The reality is that testing is limited, especially when it happens in-competition. That's why people say that if you fail a drug test in competition, you have failed an IQ test - it's so simple to manipulate the timing and dosage of your drug use so that you are not tested when you compete.And remember, the effect of doping lasts long after the drug is gone. You can take EPO, get the benefit, and compete without the drug in the system. Micro-dosing allows you to take the drug very close to the event without it being detectable. In fact, you can dope 12 hours from your race, and as long as you get dosage right, you'll pass doping controls. The authorities have to be very lucky to test you while you have the drug in your body.The point is, passing the drug controls is not really all that difficult.
1. "Lance passed 500 tests. He must be innocent"
This is straight from the press release, because it's been Armstrong's most used retort to the doping question. Two things:
First, there is no way he was tested 500 times. DimSpace has compiled a record of all the possible tests Armstrong may have been subjected to, with over-estimates, and it comes to 236. So there's more than a little hype in that number that started at 400, then hit 500, and just like that fish your uncle caught on his summer vacation in 1997 grew in size with every story-telling, ended up around the 600 mark.
Nevertheless, 236 is an impressive number to pass, so how is it possible? Well, here's a list of names - Marion Jones, Tim Montgomery, Dwain Chambers, Ivan Basso, Jan Ullrich, Valverde. That's just six names of athletes who also doped for very long periods without failing a test. Some were caught eventually (Chambers & Montgomery) because a test was developed for a drug called THG based on a tip-off. It then emerged that Chambers had doped for years, with everything, avoiding detection. Ullrich went down because of good old-fashioned investigative work that discovered blood bags in a clinic. Marion Jones was never caught. The reality is that testing is limited, especially when it happens in-competition. That's why people say that if you fail a drug test in competition, you have failed an IQ test - it's so simple to manipulate the timing and dosage of your drug use so that you are not tested when you compete.
And remember, the effect of doping lasts long after the drug is gone. You can take EPO, get the benefit, and compete without the drug in the system. Micro-dosing allows you to take the drug very close to the event without it being detectable. In fact, you can dope 12 hours from your race, and as long as you get dosage right, you'll pass doping controls. The authorities have to be very lucky to test you while you have the drug in your body.
The point is, passing the drug controls is not really all that difficult.
― omar little, Thursday, 30 August 2012 23:09 (eleven years ago) link
i think for me the issue is that at the top level of a lot of sports it becomes this elaborate intersection of sports, technology and sports medicine that i find distasteful. and that's true in sports i enjoy watching, like say, basketball or bmx racing but in pro tour cycling it's just this really egregious circus where it might as well be NASCAR with human engines
― the late great, Friday, 31 August 2012 00:04 (eleven years ago) link
I like the intersection of sports, medecine and technology. It only really bothers me that pushed to the extreme, this kind of stuff leads to early death, which is not good.
― aspiring barkitect (silverfish), Friday, 31 August 2012 01:46 (eleven years ago) link
I'd love it if there were medical analysts on tv explaining why some guy lost a bike race because he didn't take the right combination of drugs to win that particular race.
― aspiring barkitect (silverfish), Friday, 31 August 2012 01:51 (eleven years ago) link
― young money color me badd (J0rdan S.), Thursday, 30 August 2012 15:07 (Yesterday) Permalink
baseball is a wacky sport whose greatest player was a fat dude who played drunk
― Matt Armstrong, Friday, 31 August 2012 02:06 (eleven years ago) link
http://trackandfield.about.com/od/worldrecords/tp/Women-s-world-records.htm
hmmmm what happened, golden age of talent I guess
― Matt Armstrong, Friday, 31 August 2012 02:07 (eleven years ago) link
― Matt Armstrong, Thursday, August 30, 2012 10:06 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
actually baseballs greatest player was a guy who did roids
― lag∞n, Friday, 31 August 2012 02:08 (eleven years ago) link
liggett (and sherwen) gets livestrong money to speak at events. hardly a disinterested party in this.
― cock and ball torch song (haitch), Friday, 31 August 2012 02:09 (eleven years ago) link
haha lag i'm glad you said something because j0rdan's post really bugged me but i didn't wanna get into it
― some dude, Friday, 31 August 2012 02:10 (eleven years ago) link
Michael Ashenden's response to Phil Ligget
http://nyvelocity.com/content/features/2012/filthy-business-indeed
― American Fear of Pranksterism (Ed), Friday, 31 August 2012 02:45 (eleven years ago) link
Excellent ^
― I've been to Suffolk (Nasty, Brutish & Short), Friday, 31 August 2012 07:25 (eleven years ago) link
http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/biking/road-biking/My-Life-With-Lance-Armstrong.html
― lil queequeg (peter grasswich), Friday, 31 August 2012 18:54 (eleven years ago) link
^^^"MY LIFE WITH LANCE ARMSTRONGI was Lance’s personal assistant for two years, during the height of his racing career. Do I think he cheated? Yep. But my real problem is something that diehard fans seem unable to grasp: the vengeful tactics he uses against people who tell the truth about him, on and off the bike."
― lil queequeg (peter grasswich), Friday, 31 August 2012 18:55 (eleven years ago) link
http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/tyler-hamiltons-book-reveals-in-depth-doping-network#null
― I've been to Suffolk (Nasty, Brutish & Short), Friday, 31 August 2012 20:02 (eleven years ago) link
he really is a truly singular piece of shit
― omar little, Friday, 31 August 2012 20:15 (eleven years ago) link
with a singular testicle
― some dude, Friday, 31 August 2012 23:45 (eleven years ago) link