the idea of mythics (in the beginning) was that they were all gonna be splashy, powerful rares but not "4 of" type cards. so Baneslayer or the new Thundermaw are fine; it's when they started printing stuff like Lotus Cobra at Mythic that I started to feel like we were being exploited (to their credit Lotus Cobra seems like a one-time thing)
actually I don't mind the mythic rarity w/r/t what it does to the price of Standard, because as you point out it does keep regular rares like say, Restoration Angel in higher supply and does knock the price of stuff like duals down. my problem with it is when they take the mythic rarity as an opportunity to print stuff WAY over the curve that pretty much any deck in those colors has to consider playing. like I remember my jaw dropping when I saw Jace TMS, thinking "how could they do this?", and that was when I misread it at 5 mana!!
― frogbs, Saturday, 25 August 2012 16:01 (eleven years ago) link
i played a sealed draft M13 this weekend w/ some friends visiting - i got one of the white mythics (serra something) and a ton of white exalted creatures, ran those w/ green for some bigger beatdown creatures and very little removal and dominated which was really exciting. then we played some edh. every time they come in and we play, i want to start seriously playing MTG again but then i'm left in philly at the end of the weekend w/ no one to play with. :(
― Mordy, Sunday, 26 August 2012 01:48 (eleven years ago) link
^play Magic Online!
Here's what Mark Rosewater said when he introduced mythic rares:
This now leads us to the next question: How are cards split between rare and mythic rare? Or more to the point, what kind of cards are going to become mythic rares? We want the flavor of mythic rare to be something that feels very special and unique. Generally speaking we expect that to mean cards like Planeswalkers, most legends, and epic-feeling creatures and spells. They will not just be a list of each set's most powerful tournament-level cards.We've also decided that there are certain things we specifically do not want to be mythic rares. The largest category is utility cards, what I'll define as cards that fill a universal function. Some examples of this category would be cycles of dual lands and cards like Mutavault or Char. That also addresses a long-standing issue that some players have had with certain rares like dual lands. Because we're making fewer cards per set, in the new world individual rares will be easier to acquire because each rare in a large set now appears 25% more often.
We've also decided that there are certain things we specifically do not want to be mythic rares. The largest category is utility cards, what I'll define as cards that fill a universal function. Some examples of this category would be cycles of dual lands and cards like Mutavault or Char. That also addresses a long-standing issue that some players have had with certain rares like dual lands. Because we're making fewer cards per set, in the new world individual rares will be easier to acquire because each rare in a large set now appears 25% more often.
Personally I think "no cards that fill a universal function" is a little different from "no 4 of" cards. Geist of S-T and Hero of Bladehold are definitely 4-of cards, but I wouldn't say they fill a universal function; they're not in the same league as Mutavault or dual lands. Lotus Cobra is a bit more marginal, but as you say I think they recognise that as a mistake as they seem to have moved away from it in more recent sets.
― webber, Sunday, 26 August 2012 11:33 (eleven years ago) link
Right, but I think there's a certain threshold where a card becomes so powerful where virtually any deck that can support it in its manabase will become more powerful for doing so, and they've definitely been toeing that line lately (if not outright crossing it with cards like Jace or Tarmogoyf)
― frogbs, Sunday, 26 August 2012 18:28 (eleven years ago) link
tarmogoyf is not 'lately'
jace was a mistake, we know that. stoneforge mystic and snapcaster mage were too, though those weren't mythic rares. geist of saint traft and hero of bladehold are just strong cards; unlike all the overpowered creatures/planeswalkers, they don't play the defensive role and offensive role equally well, which limits their use and makes them fair
― ciderpress, Sunday, 26 August 2012 19:36 (eleven years ago) link
is this all about the online game? i keep seeing this thread high up but can't understand the discourse.
magic ruled my world as a young teen. i quit after a bit and sold my "fork" for 100 pounds, plus "made" (recouped) a decent amount on the rest (10 per cent of what i spent, probably.)
had a brief relapse around the time of mirages, hammer of bogarden and all that shit, then quit again for good.
― Know how Roo feel (LocalGarda), Sunday, 26 August 2012 19:41 (eleven years ago) link
hmm. forgot future sight was 5 years ago! whoa
still, I don't really think the format is necessarily unbalanced (as it was in say, the Affinity days), I just dislike the way cards that are way over the curve retroactively make a bunch of interesting or "build-around-me" stuff virtually unplayable in a serious deck, and the mythic era has kind of compounded this, as Wizards seems hellbent on printing a few such cards every set. Lately a lot of the most powerful cards have been either A) "deal with this immediately or you will lose" (such as the Titans, Wurmcoil, Hero, maybe Geist too), or B) "there is no good answer to this since it's too much card advantage/too cheap" - for example Snapcaster/Stoneforge/Delver really don't have good answers; they can be dealt with, but not in a way that's more efficient than the actual card. Wurmcoil sort of fits in this category too. Like, you may get burned by tapping out for Baneslayer and having it Dismembered right away, but most of the more powerful cards today don't even give your opponent the ability to respond to them in a manner that's actually efficient, meaning that the cards are so good that you have to search for reasons not to play them. Again I don't want to say this really unbalances things because T2 is relatively diverse now (or at least, it was a few months ago), it just sucks that Wizards has been printing so many neat/fun cards that really just can't see constructed play because they're so outclassed. anyway, rant over
― frogbs, Sunday, 26 August 2012 20:05 (eleven years ago) link
I do give 'em credit for Birthing Pod though, most engine-type cards like that get nerfed horribly in development
― frogbs, Sunday, 26 August 2012 20:07 (eleven years ago) link
just went on a little edh shopping spree on ebay. for less than $16 (including shipping) i got for my teneb the harvester deck: skullclamp, dauntless escort, aura shards, deadwood tree folk, loxodon hierarch, balance, qasali pridemage, saffi eriksdotter, elvish herder and magus of the disk.
― Mordy, Sunday, 26 August 2012 21:01 (eleven years ago) link
i love birthing pod so much. i play it in my teneb deck. one of the most fun cards i've ever played w/ tbh
― Mordy, Sunday, 26 August 2012 21:02 (eleven years ago) link
i'm particularly excited about a little loxodon hierarch/saffi eriksdotter/magus (and other removal) combo action
― Mordy, Sunday, 26 August 2012 21:03 (eleven years ago) link
mordy come to ny some weekend and we can go to a draft together
― iatee, Sunday, 26 August 2012 21:06 (eleven years ago) link
i would like to!
― Mordy, Sunday, 26 August 2012 21:07 (eleven years ago) link
rancor is a pretty sweet card too
― Mordy, Sunday, 26 August 2012 21:08 (eleven years ago) link
wait, Balance is LEGAL in EDH? (I don't really know what the ban list is but I'd assume the most powerful card of all time is on it)
― frogbs, Sunday, 26 August 2012 22:43 (eleven years ago) link
balance def didn't have the feel of an ultimate broken card back in the day. was it because there weren't ways to use it as effectively?
― iatee, Sunday, 26 August 2012 22:47 (eleven years ago) link
the same is true w/ swords
― iatee, Sunday, 26 August 2012 22:48 (eleven years ago) link
looking it up it was restricted in 1995 so maybe I'm wrong
― iatee, Sunday, 26 August 2012 22:55 (eleven years ago) link
This is a total guess but I think Zuran Orb might be the card that ultimately did it in?
― frogbs, Sunday, 26 August 2012 22:57 (eleven years ago) link
yeah looking back at the era, that seems very likely:http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/25bhttp://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/25e
― iatee, Sunday, 26 August 2012 23:05 (eleven years ago) link
still feel like, overall even a deck w/ 4 zuran orbs and 4 balances back then wouldn't be dominant in later eras. like that hernandez deck is kinda innocent all things considered.
― iatee, Sunday, 26 August 2012 23:07 (eleven years ago) link
i think balance is banned but restore balance isn't?
― Mordy, Sunday, 26 August 2012 23:23 (eleven years ago) link
obv balance >>> restore balance alas
― Mordy, Sunday, 26 August 2012 23:24 (eleven years ago) link
looking at old stuff balance-zuran orb was def 'a thing'
http://oracle.wizards.com/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind9611b&L=mtg-l&D=1&P=19542
― iatee, Sunday, 26 August 2012 23:31 (eleven years ago) link
I loved reading that post even from a non-Magic angle. It reminded me that the 1990s was not so long ago and people were actually clever and articulate, not just pre-Internet savages who ate their own hair.
― fields of salmon, Sunday, 26 August 2012 23:36 (eleven years ago) link
I guess an interesting question is how dominant could it have grown in a counterfactual world where it was unrestricted during the necro era
― iatee, Sunday, 26 August 2012 23:46 (eleven years ago) link
man that listserv is interesting
http://oracle.wizards.com/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind9601B&L=MTG-L&P=R6178&D=1&I=-3
― iatee, Monday, 27 August 2012 00:03 (eleven years ago) link
did u guys take the time to figure out why that deck would be unstoppable? i'm curious but not enough to look up all those cards
― Mordy, Monday, 27 August 2012 00:08 (eleven years ago) link
ok, looked up a few. looks like your library is all very low cost artifacts so u can shed your hand quickly, tutor balance, then you rack them + paupers' cage them to death (both do damage to players w/ small hands)
― Mordy, Monday, 27 August 2012 00:13 (eleven years ago) link
looks like you just blow your hand early, tutor for Balance (Mystical Tutor as a 4-of...whoa), use it to destroy their creatures and their hand, use Zur's Weirding to deny their draws, kill 'em with the Rack and Mishra's Factories?
at the time I don't think creature-based strategies were really quick enough to deal with something like this
― frogbs, Monday, 27 August 2012 00:16 (eleven years ago) link
yeah creature decks were pretty much unplayable in the early days, they took like 5 or 6 turns to kill undisrupted, when that number really has to be 4 to compete with combo. the decks during urza's saga era couldn't even play the most efficient creatures like savannah lions because they had to play entirely artifact/enchantment destroying creatures like elvish lyrist and goblin tinkerer in order to have enough outs to the turn 2/3 combo kills.
― ciderpress, Monday, 27 August 2012 02:30 (eleven years ago) link
I think that's a little too broad a statement. control/combo decks were generally slower too and if you look at top decks during the early period there are plenty of creature-based decks. (to me urza's saga is no longer the early days).
― iatee, Monday, 27 August 2012 03:23 (eleven years ago) link
http://www.wizards.com/sideboard/article.asp?x=sb20001005a
like that 1996 deck seems pretty unintimidating but it was tournament playable because the rest of the game was slower too
― iatee, Monday, 27 August 2012 03:27 (eleven years ago) link
http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/210
new preview cards in this article all look great, i am even more excited for this set now
― ciderpress, Monday, 27 August 2012 06:06 (eleven years ago) link
Yeah I really get the sense that RTR is going to be their best big set yet. That UR goblin seems super powerful, can't believe it's only common.
― frogbs, Monday, 27 August 2012 13:43 (eleven years ago) link
going to a draft in 40 mins :)
― iatee, Friday, 31 August 2012 22:08 (eleven years ago) link
quick someone tell me the money cards
― iatee, Friday, 31 August 2012 22:10 (eleven years ago) link
there is one with a marginally more efficient creature and then there are two that lock into a peculiar arbitrary pattern allowing you to win the game in three turns via rules lawyering
― thomp, Friday, 31 August 2012 22:13 (eleven years ago) link
which set?
― frogbs, Friday, 31 August 2012 22:14 (eleven years ago) link
m13
― iatee, Friday, 31 August 2012 22:15 (eleven years ago) link
draft tips asap!!! I have 30 mins
and am unfamiliar w/ the set outside of historic-cards and stuff on the ipad app
it looks like a lot of this is on the ipad app actually
― iatee, Friday, 31 August 2012 22:16 (eleven years ago) link
ummm lets see, there's B/W exalted, W/x soldier deck with stuff like Crusader of Odric, a quick red Goblin deck, lots of good green fatties, blue has flyers, obviously
Core set draft is pretty easy in general. Find an uncommon or rare to build around, go to town
― frogbs, Friday, 31 August 2012 22:20 (eleven years ago) link
get some good creatures, pay attention to mana curve (heavily weighed towards 1 + 2 mana creatures) have fun!
― Mordy, Friday, 31 August 2012 22:25 (eleven years ago) link
what cards are worth $
― iatee, Friday, 31 August 2012 22:25 (eleven years ago) link
it was fun! so many nerds. so many nerds.
― iatee, Saturday, 1 September 2012 02:38 (eleven years ago) link
i'd participate much more in nerd culture if not for the nerds
― Mordy, Saturday, 1 September 2012 03:30 (eleven years ago) link
did you manage to grab a sublime archangel?
― Moodles, Saturday, 1 September 2012 04:07 (eleven years ago) link
no, it woulda been nice tho, cause I had a black/white deck w/ a lot of exalted. still only did so-so cause I had a lot of bad draws. will def go back, the store is really close to my work + train home and everyone was really friendly.
― iatee, Saturday, 1 September 2012 22:30 (eleven years ago) link