Just when you thought it was safe - OK CUPID PART 3: The Return of the WOO!

After long stints on my own, a warm body to cuddle up with can become more and more appealing. I certainly don't instinctively turn them away.

Yeah, but there's a difference between taking advantage of the presence of a warm body and rushing into a relationship with a warm body who you're maybe not all that compatible with.

I have a warm body that I've used for warm body times for over a year now; now I'd like someone whose brain I find really, really hot.

Someone who goes into "let's get serious" town after two dates is an anti-seducer and unfortunately is a result of the other kind of anti-seducer--the insecure commitment-phobe (and perpetual window shopper).

What is an anti-seducer? Dare I ask, because googling brings up a bunch of PUA sites and I don't want to click on them.

It's a chapter from the book "The Art of Seduction" by Robert Greene (PUA types read this book, but it's actually kind of interesting/informative...). I've posted this before on ILX, pretty sure, so apologies if it's a repeat for folks.

'Anti-Seducers come in many shapes and kinds, but almost all of them share a single attribute, the source of their repellence: insecurity. We are all insecure, and we suffer for it. Yet we are able to surmount these feelings at times; a seductive engagement can bring us out of our usual self-absorption, and to the degree that we seduce or are seduced, we feel charged and confident. Anti-Seducers, however, are insecure to such a degree that they cannot be drawn into the seductive process. Their needs, their anxieties, their self-consciousness close them off. They interpret the slightest ambiguity on your part as a slight to their ego; they see the merest hint of withdrawal as a betrayal, and are likely to complain bitterly about it.

It seems easy: Anti-Seducers repel, so be repelled—avoid them. Unfortunately, however, many Anti-Seducers cannot be detected as such at first glance. They are more subtle, and unless you are careful they will ensnare you in a most unsatisfying relationship. You must look for clues to their self-involvement and insecurity: perhaps they are ungenerous, or they argue with unusual tenacity, or are excessively judgmental.

Perhaps they lavish you with undeserved praise, declaring their love before knowing anything about you. Or, most important, they pay no attention to details. Since they cannot see what makes you different, they cannot surprise you with nuanced attention.

It is critical to recognize anti-seductive qualities not only in others but also in ourselves. Almost all of us have one or two of the Anti-Seducer's qualities latent in our character, and to the extent that we can consciously root them out, we become more seductive. A lack of generosity, for instance, need not signal an Anti-Seducer if it is a person's only fault, but an ungenerous person is seldom truly attractive. Seduction implies opening yourself up, even if only for the purposes of deception; being unable to give by spending money usually means being unable to give in general. Stamp ungenerosity out. It is an impediment to power and a gross sin in seduction. It is best to disengage from Anti-Seducers early on, before they sink their needy tentacles into you...'

Ah, thanks for the explanation.

But then again, I read something like that, and I just think "Oh, I give up."

Why, exactly?

More depressing to me is that there a ton of guys out there who are super-conversant with that stuff. The more PUA dudes women encounter, the harder it is to convince those women that you abhor that bullshit. We need a strict ANTI-PUA dating site...but it would probably just get infiltrated by those dudes as some kinda weird tactic.

I don't really like the idea of seduction. It makes me very uncomfortable.

And basically, I am very very insecure when it comes to sex/romance matters, so it feels like that is a giant essay telling the entire world to stay away from me. Like, thanks for that.

This is pretty spot-on wrt what I was talking about, though (even though the jargon kinda drives me up a wall):

Perhaps they lavish you with undeserved praise, declaring their love before knowing anything about you. Or, most important, they pay no attention to details. Since they cannot see what makes you different, they cannot surprise you with nuanced attention.

And that doesn't just mean that they fail to see what's special and different about you. They also put up blinders wrt what's flawed and different about you. This is a lot of why my OKC profile has a lot of "this is my shit, I'm pretty far from being a perfect person, hope you can deal". So many people want to just jump right into things without even parsing potential personality conflicts. Like, you can't even learn to negotiate that territory until you've at least acknowledged it.

WCC, the fact that seduction makes you uncomfortable tells me you're probably of sounder mind about dating than a lot of other people are. Anyone who legit thinks this stuff can be boiled down to a formula creeps me the eff out.

i used to be an anti-seducer but now i'm a seducer (i think...or at least not an anti-seducer). it's weird though because part of me internalized the "no one is going to love you if you can't love yourself" thing and expected dating to start going much much better than it is.

I'm not sure that loving yourself is supposed to make dating better, I think it's supposed to make lyfe better.

i think the less obvious definition of seduction is "getting to actually know you," which is a real thing that happens to real people, sometimes even before they sleep with each other

i mean, seductive things don't always have to be sexual things

"Seduction" as a word just has such overpowering associations with "getting someone to do something they don't really want to do" which is just so NAGL in any context, sexual or otherwise. Just... no.

Yeah, I can't say what's causation and what's correlation, but the times when I've been most successful at dating (in terms of attracting people to me and having a fun & easy time with it, not necc. in terms of being well-suited to long-term settlin' down) have been the times when I was generally pretty satisfied with the direction of my life and not really actively seeking out people to date. Basically, when I had my own shit going on and was satisfied with it. Conversely, I'm massively dissatisfied with most aspects of my life at this point in time and the interest from others has largely dried up. Make of those anecdotes what you will.

oh, ah, that too. i guess i don't really think of seduction that way!
xp

xxpost

I agree. The concept of seduction in my mind is just gross.

I am neither satisfied nor unsatisfied with my life, I'm just kinda bored with it.

I see seduction as that sweet spot between the people who want to jump right into relationships and those who want to jump right into sex. It's getting to know someone for the sheer joy of it, flirting, hinting at possibility (but not hammering it home), indulging in fantasy and playfulness. And either love happens, or sex happens, or things fizzle. But each person enjoys the process.

I hate flirting. It unsettles and confuses the hell out of me. I am clearly an anti-seducer and should just go home.

But each person enjoys the process.

Yeah, that's kinda the crux right there. The idea of seduction tends to dredge up a PUA connotation in my brain anymore, where her enjoyment isn't much of a factor. Hence my squicked-out-ness. It's nice to think that seduction can be a two-way street, though.

WCC, flirting can be as simple as holding your own and maintaining confidence. I think a lot of the more mechanical stuff that people get out of a book is bullshit. I mean, clearly it works for certain people, but those are people that will clearly always be just way, way the eff off my dating radar.

I'm not arguing for one definition or the other, but I definitely think "coercion with a 'gentlemanly' flair" when I hear the word seduction; super gross.

Lots of women like to be seduced. It's not always some creeptastic coercion. Sometimes it is, but that's not being seductive--that's being a bully.

I don't know that you can say "lots of." I think you can say you like it, and I don't, and leave it at that. I hate drawing conclusions about an entire gender based on 2 examples.

I didn't say all women. I said lots. A fair amount? Whatever.

FWIW, I don't think creepiness is inherent in the definition of 'seduction'. I just think the word has taken on more of that taint as a result of the prevalence of the PUA movement.

I think the word had that taint back as far as the Rake's Progress. It's not a positive-connotated word.

xpost

I mean, that's kinda the consequence of creepy dudes conflating 'seduction' with 'methodical mindfuckery'.

I agree with OL.

PUA's use the word 'seduction' a lot. I don't think it's an overtly negative word. It's supposed to be enjoyable in my view of it. At the end, both parties end up in love.

Or, in the Rakes Progress, with syphilis. Same thing, really?

I think the disagreement here is largely a matter of semantics. I'm grasping for a word/phrase that essentially means "well-intentioned flirtation with the intention of expressing mutual attraction and the accrual of mutual trust" but doesn't sound like a doctoral thesis. I'm down with that probably nonexistent word.

well, that's a good effort at avoiding making it sound like an information-gathering operation for the purposes of giving mutual consent to intimate involvement

I guess I am in the minority in that I enjoy mind games and mystery. I pretty much want life to be like an erotic thriller.

Ha. Clearly some people do enjoy those things. I am one of those people who is very adamant about basically having zero tolerance for those things. It takes all sorts!

It's mostly like: you can never really know anybody fully, and there are always going to be gaps in communication and understanding between yourself and most people. If I'm dating someone (and particularly if we're dating seriously), one of my overriding goals is to try and bridge that gap, to get to know someone else and let someone else know me as intimately as possible, and anything that stands in the way of that (e.g. games, headfuckery, any extent to which the expectation of societal norms diminishes someone's personality) kinda flies in the face of what I see as most of the point of partnering up. But that may just be me.

Hmm. I am having trouble really iterating what I mean by mind games and mystery. I have some examples, but none I feel comfortable posting on ILX.

I feel like you're trying to say that you like romance, which gets a bad rap and is somehow embarrassing to admit? Nothing at all wrong with it imo, but connotatively I think a lot of people find "romance" repulsive. Most romance signifiers aren't particularly cool. I am not talking about stupid shit like roses and calling each other sweetpea. I'm talking about actual romance. Tension that ebbs and flows, etc. Romance.

Uhh...yeah, 'romance' certainly works for my purposes. Ha ha. A-doy.

I actually kinda do want all that stupid old shit like letters and sodas.

Oh, I am unabashedly romantic. Love letters, sap, mush. Bring it on.

btw is there a chance this thread could be deindexed at all?

yes

xpost to messiahwannabe: that response was really intended for myself.

tks Jim :)

connotatively I think a lot of people find "romance" repulsive

Wow, seriously? That is doing my head in. How can romance be repulsive? :/

The whole idea of swooning over someone, mix tapes, flirting, letters, standing outside staring at stars/sunset/the sea, smooching, all that jazz. I'd die if I didnt get that from a relationship.

Or more to the point, die of boredom.

“Along with the idea of romantic love, she was introduced to another--physical beauty. Probably the most destructive ideas in the history of human thought. Both originated in envy, thrived in insecurity, and ended in disillusion.”

I think she's saying that a lot of people see stock romantic tropes as hokey or trite. I guess it isn't for everybody. Some people are probably also just too uncomfortable in their own skin to let themselves be gooey and sappy with another person. I dunno. I'm just speculating because I don't get that, either.

Like, a lot of the appeal of coupling to me is finding someone you can just let yourself go with and indulge in all that stuff that makes bitter single people want to barf.