Pazz & Jop 2008

Frightened Rabbit (my #1 vote!) are not electronic, to put it mildly. They're indie, put broadly, but not coy enough to place higher.

It's hard for me to not conclude that the main emotion driving whatever "consensus" the P&J represents is fear. It certainly never looks like joy.

Also, "Missing You" is a great song.

yah but xhuxk there already exists a rap music canon and substantive rap music discourse whereas that sort of thing w/r/t teenpop/chartpop has been pretty negligible until recently. this is not a judgment about the worth of this music or anything at all but you realize that most teenpop fans arent interested in the canonization of their favorite stars whereas rap & critrock have always had that type of discussion going on (or have for a long long time). the idea of even having those discussions is pretty new and limited to the ilm teenpop threads (RIP) and those livejournal discussion groups right?? whereas there are kids in every town in america who were arguing about whether jay beat nas back in 01 for ex.

rap didn't do well in the P&J in the 90s?

im not saying that in an idealized world everything isnt represented im just pointing out that the continued marginalization of rap music is particularly weird. part of the problem is rap writers themselves ... dudes like caramanica voting for 2 rap albums is wtf

the metal writers (from ilx anyway) didn't exclusively vote for metal either. Do some writers just vote for what they think might get enough votes from others so it places high?

which btw is weird & self defeating. we'll never elect a black president so im not voting for obama in the primary.

i think some ppl do put shit in at the end if they think it will give it a boost as opposed to something that's gonna get 2 or 3 votes

rap writers are just more open minded than indie pop fans ^__^

Maybe (too be naive and uncynical for a moment -- though actually I suspect this is the case) writers (like Caramanica, for instance) just vote for what they like best?* (I mean, I assumed, when Glenn suggested that critics who only put one metal album on their P&J list lacked "courage", he was joking. Now I'm kind of getting the idea he maybe wasn't. But, you know, some of us might just have thought only one metal album -- in my case, one that might not even count as "troo" metal, as if anybody over the age of 12 should give a fuck -- was good enough.) (Also, deej, I do understand your point about chart-pop, though how that applies to the shut-out classic rock bands I also mentioned is sort of beyond me. And country has had a canon for longer than rap has, though I'm not sure whether fans argue about whether Toby could beat up Kenny or not.)

* - I assume Caramanica does, anyway. Why wouldn't he? And why second-guess his motives? He's not just a rap critic, hasn't been for several years.

I do, though, assume a lot of writers much hackier than Jon just follow the bandwagon, for expediency or out of sheer laziness, maybe -- copying down what other writers put on their Top 10s in December, and thinking, "yeah, I kinda liked that, too." So I guess that's what Glenn means about P&J voters lacking fortitude, which may well be the case. (And yeah, I wonder who gutlessly left off Katy Perry.)

Glenn was joking.

there are kids in every town in america who were arguing about whether jay beat nas

I have a feeling there were kids in every town arguing about whether NSync was better than Backstreet, and Christina better than Britney (and Debbie better than Tiffany, and the Monkees better than the Beatles), too. So let's ammend what I just wrote to say I sort of get your point.

yeah but no one is arguing if torche is better than made out of babies

Did anyone say people were?

re carmancia deej is right. ppl obv like tons of stuff but the most high profile p&j voters who are rap critics (fennessey, breihan for instance) voted for tons of non-rap shit, whereas you don't see any david fricke or rob sheffield or david marchese voting for 6 rap albums even tho they work for rock mags

well herman, deej's original post was about why rap does better than metal

Well on metal boards neither torche or made out of babies get considered metal but they will argue about whether dimebag darrell was a better guitarist than kirk hammett or if new Enslaved is a sell out compared to someone else. Kids think Trivium are metter than old Metallica etc. So yes, metal kids do argue about it.

yeah but its not as popular as rap

"Why isnt traditional bagpipe music bigger on pazz n jop??"

all the bagpipe ppl argue about who's better at bagpipes

anyway i don't mean to be condescending - i wasnt saying that metal ppl didn't care enough about the genre to argue just that obv rap has reached a pop scale where "kids in every town" argue about shit whereas metal is not on that plane anymore

basically what deej said

I wouldn't argue with rap being bigger than metal. Was just meaning metal kids can be as anal about their music as any other genre. And there's still going to be metal kids in everytown. Hell, even nu-metal crossed over to 10 year old kids in the uk. You still see 12 year olds in Slipknot tees.

most high profile p&j voters who are rap critics (fennessey, breihan for instance) voted for tons of non-rap shit, whereas you don't see any david fricke or rob sheffield or david marchese voting for 6 rap albums even tho they work for rock mags

Again, I don't get the point here. Breihan, like Caramanica, writes about all different kinds of music. Including, presumably, some albums he likes as much as his favorite rap albums. Both Caramanica and Breihan are also real good country critics, and I'd never suggest they should vote for all (or even mostly) country albums. You're acting like there are only two kinds of music out there -- rap and non-rap.

there are like 3 total critics who voted more than 50% rap albums. dont you think thats weird?

There are like 3 total critics who voted more than 50% rap country albums. don't you think that's weird?

i think it's good that major rap critics and higher ups at major rap mags are into other genres - as opposed to, say, rolling stone - it's just that the commodification of the same rap shit is helped along when the most high profile rap writers - and most vocal supporters on the internet of guys like rich boy and scarface etc - end up voting for bon iver and tv on the radio

xp Pretty sure Glenn said only one critic voted for all metal albums too. (News flash: HUMAN BEINGS LIKE LOTS OF DIFFERENT MUSIC!) (And Rolling Stone covers lots of different kinds too, last time I checked.)

xp no - it seems like country has always been a relative critical blindspot despite its popularity in numbers

especially when compared to rap in terms of crossover w/ rock critics

I was making fun of the....monochromatic inclinations of some of our posters. Carry on.

I wasn't joking, but I'm not sure whether my criticism actually applies to individuals, or is kind of a reaction to the aggregate effect of polling this way. Obviously nobody is required to like Katy Perry, for example. I didn't vote for her myself, not out of a lack of courage but because her album was in my second 10, not my first 10. Maybe everybody simply voted what they liked, and really that many people genuinely like TV on the Radio and the Fleet Foxes. But yeah, like Chuck, I suspect that isn't 100% the case. I think there are some systemic biases and recurrent trends in P&J, and I think two years of Idolator constrast helped demonstrate them. Adding a few more voters, especially voters with different predispositions, wouldn't hurt.

But actually, if I were in charge, I'd make two structural changes to the poll that I think might make it significantly more interesting whatever the electorate:

1. Expand album ballots to 20 or 25. I bet nearly every voter in the poll could fill 20 as easily as 10, and we'd get more diversity and less tokenism from each person.
2. For singles, do a pre-poll nomination round, and then in the poll itself have people pick 10 (or 20) from the hundred or two songs that got nominated most. This would get a little more consensus into the singles voting, which has become pretty scattered recently.

And I'd ditch points, too, or perhaps reduce the points scheme to 2 points for your #1 and 1 point for everything else.

Obviously nobody is required to like Katy Perry

that's a relief

there are like 3 total critics who voted more than 50% rap albums. dont you think thats weird?

Actually, to be honest, if this is true (I have my doubts, and haven't checked) I do think it's weird. It's also a huge drop from a few years ago. (At least if you count rap and r&b albums together. There were always several critics whose ballots leaned that way -- with maybe one token White Stripes album, or whatever. If that's changed now, it's kind of fucked, though I don't see how it's Briehan's or Caramanica's fault; the problem is probably more the electorate than individual voters. And I'm sure Harvilla wants more hip-hop voters (and non-indie voters in general) -- he's said so himself. (But I'm the last person who has a reason to defend the current state of Pazz & Jop, seeing how I, uh, ran the thing for several years.)

Not sure I've seen any ballots that are 50% country, though. (Though mine might come close, if you stretch the definition somewhat.) And yeah, rock critics paying attention to commercial country is a fairly recent development, compared to hip-hop.

pre-poll nomination round

Just want to say I hate this idea. (Also don't think the lack of consensus is a problem. And I'm not convinced there used to be more of a consensus among the singles voters, except in the sense that -- especially in pre-download days -- there were way fewer "singles" to choose from. So why not do what Pazz & Jop always used to do, and limit the voting to actual singles, defined as broadly as the poobahs think might be workable?)

how would they police the voting if they limited it to "official singles"? i think the singles voting is flawed but "paper planes" and "rehab" seem ubiquitous enough to be picks of the consensus

It'd be tough to police, admittedly -- maybe impossible, given that people have grown used to voting for random "tracks" for several years now. But they could at least attempt to control it by somehow defining singles in the P&J letter, like we used to. ("Singles" could include, say, "airplay tracks", "tracks promoted with videos," etc., not just physical releases, which obviously barely even exist anymore. I dunno; Wikipedia for instance seems to do pretty well in their singles discographies, though maybe they miss more than I've picked up on.)

xp Of course, another possibility for the recent lack of hip-hop voters might just be that the actual consensus has changed -- i.e., that critics are increasingly convinced (rightly or wrongly) that hip-hop just isn't as good as it used to be -- or that indie rock has improved in comparison, or whatever. (Personally, though, I suspect that the voting demographic is the biggest thing that's changed.)

Obviously, for instance, any song that hit any of the Hot Songs charts in Billboard would be eligible, and that's another thing the letter could spell out. (Basically, I think you could police it more by directing definitions than by excluding songs.)

Speaking of singles, did anyone else notice Andrew Scott Earle's ballot?:

http://www.villagevoice.com/pazznjop/critics/2008/685529

I also liked that Ben Westhoff (whoever he is) voted for a White Lion single:

http://www.villagevoice.com/pazznjop/critics/2008/686481

And Ken Roseman (whoever he is) voted for a Chumbawamba album:

http://www.villagevoice.com/pazznjop/critics/2008/684703

Thought Joe Tangari's worldbeat-heavy ballot was intriguing, too. (Never heard of him, either):

http://www.villagevoice.com/pazznjop/critics/2008/686268

nickelback voters

NOMO and Baobob were almost on my ballot; I don't know why I haven't listened to the new Amadou and Mariam album yet.

Tangari I think has written a few pieces on African music for Pitchfork.

the problem is probably more the electorate than individual voters. And I'm sure Harvilla wants more hip-hop voters (and non-indie voters in general) -- he's said so himself. (But I'm the last person who has a reason to defend the current state of Pazz & Jop, seeing how I, uh, ran the thing for several years.)

― xhuxk, Sunday, January 25, 2009 1:09 AM (54 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

I agree. This is the dead horse I've been beating for awhile. But as Chuck and Matos know, you can e-mail hundreds of folks but that does not mean they will respond. I think Ethan tried to get more rap critics to vote in the Idolator poll with little success and I recall Chuck or Christgau complaining about rap and punk critics not responding. Last year I gave Matos some whirled music names and I notified whirled music publicists Rock Paper Scissors that the idolator poll was happening, and very few of those folks responded (despite Matos' efforts). Yet, the fRoots world music critics poll has lots of folks who do not vote in P & J, and I bet a number of US based Global Rhythms and the Beat contributors won't vote in P & J either.

The new Amadou & Marian and the new Rokia Traore were out in Europe in '08 but aren't being released in the US till February I think

I have a feeling there were kids in every town arguing about whether NSync was better than Backstreet, and Christina better than Britney (and Debbie better than Tiffany, and the Monkees better than the Beatles), too.

but they didn't grow up to vote in pazz & jop, obv. and of course you might be sort of dispirited to see what kind of stuff people who were arguing about nsync vs. backstreet in 9th grade are listening to now. we can all idealize our optimal open-eared voters, but they mostly don't exist, is the problem.

i think more than diversifying the voter pool, there are a lot of things that could be done to make the whole thing more interesting. alongside the p&j (or whatever poll), run a set of "stuff i like" lists compiled from random people of random ages in random places. it wouldn't give you anything more than anecdotes, but it seems like the absence of anecdotes is what's being lamented here -- the tendency toward dull consensus and away from individual enjoyment and obsession. i mean, aggregation is all about the dull consensus; the way around that might not be to change the aggregation, but just to supplement it.

(and believe me, i agree that anything that gives you tvotr and vampire weekend as your 1-2 in any year can use some serious supplementing.)

Another thing they could theoretically do (though they'd never find the time or pages to do it, not these days) is something Xgau tried once (1986 or so?) in the '70s -- namely, run lots of demographic mini-polls from, say, female critics and African American critics and voters over 40 and under 30. (Fuck the thirtysomethings, man. Just kidding.) The one time it was done, the results were really interesting. (Sidebar mini-polls by genre used to look really cool in N.M.E. in the late '80s, too. But again, you're talking man hours it's hard to imagine unless you've actually done of these. And the deadlines just keep getting tighter every year.)

(Contradicted myself. Obv meant he tried it in the '80s.)

tendency toward dull consensus and away from individual enjoyment and obsession.

This is another reason I really can't stand Glenn's pre-poll nomination idea -- which, as far as I can tell, would only make the poll more dull.

couldnt a glenn-type person just go through the results and figure out the gender/race/age breakdowns? or are you talking about something else?
(xpost)

Well, you'd have to get all the demographic information -- which I assume Glenn isn't privy to -- first. (Christgau used to ask for it in the poll letter every year, but I think that's another old tradition that's gone by the wayside. And voters were never all that forthcoming even back then.)

If I had demographic information I could give you poll slices with my pinkie. But I don't. I've spent a little while trying to get some genre information, taking artist lists from the ILM Metal poll and the HipHopCritics Poll, but this is a pretty unreliable method of getting data that's kind of dubious even if you have it.

I can confirm, at least, that there are only a handful of voters whose ballots are more than half rap. Ditto for metal.

I see Q-Tip won that album poll of 25 folks at hiphopcritic.com and 74 people voted in the Nashville Scene country music poll (Jamey Johnson album winner) and Every year fRoots polls a panel of hundreds of experts, in the UK and internationally, to decide the Album Of The Year in the fields covered in the magazine – world folk and roots music.