Pazz & Jop 2008

I recall the idolator poll last year skewing slightly differently from the P & J poll. Do you know how many folks who participated in that final idolator poll did not also participate in last year's P & J (or this year's)? It does not appear that P & J gained that many previous idolator only voters.

There were 212 people who voted in Idolator's poll but not P&J last year. Of those I see only about 20 in this year's P&J, and I didn't try to count how many of those had already voted in the P&J in previous years. P&J itself had 574 last year.

Will be posting no2 album in the metal poll in the next 10 mins and then after the no1 some stats Glenn gave me. Then he will be along later to post his complete stats rundown. Please have a look at ILX METAL ALBUMS OF THE YEAR 2008 RESULTS (NOW COUNTING DOWN THE TOP TEN, BTW)

Glenn has just started posting the stats there now

For my one crossover stat with P&J relevance, here is a True Metal ranking (I call this kvltosis; please alert me via messenger pigeon if you get this joke) calculated by taking the albums voted-for in the ILM Metal poll as a definition of what was metal this year, then scoring each P&J voter by how many of those they voted for, then re-rating the P&J albums by the average of those voter-scores for their voters. 1.0 would mean that all an album's voters voted exclusively for metal. But there weren't any of those.

7.3 - Amon Amarth - Twilight of the Thunder God
7.0 - Neuraxis - Thin Line Between
6.0 - In Flames - A Sense of Purpose
5.5 - Leviathan - Massive Conspiracy Against All Life
5.5 - Wetnurse - Invisible City
5.4 - Nachtmystium - Assassins: Black Meddle, Pt.1
5.2 - Enslaved - Vertebrae
5.1 - Opeth - Watershed
4.8 - Gojira - Way of All Flesh
4.8 - Genghis Tron - Board Up the House
4.8 - Meshuggah - obZen
4.8 - Krallice - Krallice
4.5 - Dead Congregation - Graves of the Archangels
4.0 - Harvey Milk - Life...The Best Game in Town
4.0 - In This Moment - Dream
4.0 - Lair of the Minotaur - War Metal Battle Master
3.5 - Ceremony - Still Nothing Moves You
3.5 - Jex Thoth - Jex Thoth
3.5 - Judas Priest - Nostradamus
3.5 - Slim Cessna's Auto Club - Cipher
3.3 - Blood Ceremony - Blood Ceremony
3.3 - Made Out of Babies - Ruiner
3.3 - Sword - Gods of the Earth
3.0 - Darkthrone - Dark Thrones and Black Flags
3.0 - Howlin' Rain - Magnificent Fiend
3.0 - Testament - Formation of Damnation
2.8 - Torche - Meanderthal
2.6 - Disfear - Live the Storm
2.6 - Earth - Bees Made Honey in the Lion's Skull
2.5 - Burning Star Core - Challenger
2.5 - Rhys Chatham and His Guitar Trio All-Stars - Guitar Trio Is My Life!
2.0 - Snowman - Horse, the Rat and the Swan
2.0 - Metallica - Death Magnetic
1.8 - Gutter Twins - Saturnalia
1.7 - Marnie Stern - This Is It . . .
1.7 - Dirtbombs - We Have You Surrounded
1.7 - Mogwai - Hawk Is Howling
1.5 - Baby Dee - Safe Inside the Day
1.5 - Bohren and der Club of Gore - Dolores
1.5 - Boris - Smile
1.5 - Fennesz - Black Sea
1.5 - Heavy - Great Vengeance and Furious Fire
1.5 - Lukestar - Lake Toba
1.5 - Melvins - Nude With Boots
1.5 - Mr. Gnome - Deliver This Creature
1.5 - Necrovation - Breed Deadness Blood
1.4 - AC/DC - Black Ice
1.3 - Jean Grae - Jeanius
1.2 - Dungen - 4
1.2 - Fucked Up - Chemistry of Common Life
1.2 - James Blackshaw - Litany of Echoes

Note that there are a few albums that didn't make the ILM Metal poll even though they might be considered metal by many, including Testament, Judas Priest, and Black Sabbath, but none of these got enough votes to matter much. AC/DC and GNR also don't count, so Phil Freeman, who arguably has the sole all-metal P&J ballot, had 3 of those 5 and thus was scored in these calcualtions as 7, not 10. There was no 9, and the only 8 was Kurt Orzeck, who lost one point for the deathcore band Dr. Acula (no votes in the other poll) and one for My Morning Jacket's Evil Urges, which I have to wonder whether he voted for based on the title without actually listening to it.

LOL

Evil Urges was one of the year's absolute worst albums, metal or not. I listened once and filed that sucker back on the shelf to collect dust for a few years. I remember thinking maybe three or four tracks were passable, the rest awful.

Finally decided to check out Torche. Youtube comments are funny:

this is suppost to be sludge metal
what a shit voice for sludge metal he is trying to sing all pop. i think they need to find a better vocalist cos this is shit

That's why I kinda like it

Next question: Are there really that many p&j voters who are so stuck on old rap paradigms that they think "Black President" is better than "My President Is Black"?

Are you really asking that question, Rev?

Long day.

Also in "Are you really asking that question, Rev?", WTFingF at Q-Tip placing so high? Are people so happy to see he finally got an album out that they'll take any old piece of garbage from him? Amplified was about eighteen times better and still wasn't one of the best few rap albums of that year.

q-tip album was cool

i mean if yr mad at the shitty placement of rap music i dont know that its helpful to shit on one of the few decent rap records that made it

Amplified was about eighteen times better and still wasn't one of the best few rap albums of that year.

Wrong.

right/wrong.

well if jeezy follows the normal course of these things, his next album will be overrated by people who slept on this one. so you can look forward to bitching about that in a year or two.

but his last album wasn't all that good. (the debut is all i'll ever need, i think.)

^^^Jeezy

Recession was a BIG letdown for me. Although there seems to be a lot of love for it on ILM.

Marcello raved about it, that i do remember.

really? all i can remember is him calling T.I.'s latest album of the year (and he wasn't too far off there, afaic).

no, he was very far off there.

possibly his worst album.

the singles were great, but the album on the whole didn't do much for me.

xp

if by worst you mean best, then sure.

the recession for me is the first time jeezy's lived up to his hype. i like thug motivation but never loved it, am sort of so-so on inspiration (but "i luv it" is good toomp). but mostly i mean that the recession is sort of breaking late in critical quarters, which i think will set him up for "omg new jeezy!"-type stuff next time around.

If Keleffa Sanneh had stayed at the NY Times and raved about Jeezy that might have helped win over some other critics. Really.

what happened with Keleffa anyhow?

He's writing for the New Yorker now. Mostly about non-music related stuf with the exception of a profile of Will olham.

hmm...

The Top 100 tracks, in ascending order, as a Spotify playlist. Only 10 tracks are missing. Spotify isn't available in the US or Canada.

but his last album wasn't all that good. (the debut is all i'll ever need, i think.)

― Ioannis, Saturday, January 24, 2009 9:40 AM (2 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

his new one was great, autogoon cru pretty united behind that one

i tried to get into it, but...

the singles were great, but the album on the whole didn't do much for me.

― Ioannis, Saturday, January 24, 2009 5:49 PM (2 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

I made two lists this year, one metal and one not. Last year, when there were two polls, I filed one list in each poll, but this year I had to combine parts of both into one ballot. So here's a shout out to the other things I didn't get to vote for, and how they fared without me:

Trinacria - Travel Now Journey Infinitely (0 votes)
Cynic - Traced in Air (1 vote)
Gyongyver - Vilagok Viraga (0 votes)
In Flames - A Sense of Purpose (2 votes)
M83 - Saturdays=Youth (28 votes! would have been my most popular pick!)
Katy Perry - One of the Boys (0 votes! I smell some critical cowardice...)
Delays - Everything's the Rush (0 votes)
Ida - Lovers Prayers (2 votes)
Bob Mould - District Line (3 votes)
Shearwater - Rook (8 votes)
Asian Kung-Fu Generation - World World World (0 votes)

Comments on these, as well as on the ones I did vote for, at http://www.furia.com/page.cgi?type=twas&id=twas0510 .

Yeah, I was initially pretty tepid about The Recession except for the most obviously awesome songs, but I've mostly come around to it.

well if jeezy follows the normal course of these things, his next album will be overrated by people who slept on this one. so you can look forward to bitching about that in a year or two.

― paper plans (tipsy mothra), Saturday, January 24, 2009 6:16 AM Bookmark

Probably otm, but this didn't happen with The Inspiration.

q-tip album was cool

― xhuxk d (deej), Saturday, January 24, 2009 1:07 AM Bookmark

i mean if yr mad at the shitty placement of rap music i dont know that its helpful to shit on one of the few decent rap records that made it

― xhuxk d (deej), Saturday, January 24, 2009 1:07 AM Bookmark

Really dude? Production was pretty boring and as of this point in time, Q-Tip CAN. NOT. RAP. AT. ALL.

I'll give the Roots voters more of a pass, because they are P&J perenials (whereas nothing Tip did has placed since Midnight Marauders) and the album does contain one genuinely amazing song, although WTF at "75 Bars" only getting one vote?

Are there really that many p&j voters who are so stuck on old rap paradigms that they think "Black President" is better than "My President Is Black"?

Fwiw, "My President" actually got one more vote than "Black President" did.

And I'm not saying that hip-hip probably isn't under-represented in the poll like always, but five albums in the Top 40, six if Badu counts (albiet two just squeezing in at the bottom of the list) is at least way better than metal (two albums at #s 31 and 37), country (none unless Drive By Truckers and Alejandro Escovedo count, which they shouldn't), or chart-pop (none unless Santogold or Coldplay count) did this year. Not to mention African, reggae, or Latin, all of which used to do way better. (Metal used to do even worse.) I actually think five hip-hop albums is about par for the course, over the years; definitely better than some years. Bottom line is, every genre that isn't indie-pop is getting the shaft in Pazz & Jop these days. Even the old farts have slipped some (well, they've also gotten older -- this year I guess there's Randy Newman, R.E.M., Byrne/Eno, Nick Cave though he's still really more indie, and that Dylan reissue.) (Not sure what would count as electronic/dance -- Portishead, Cut Copy, Hot Chip, Hercules & Love Affair? So that's maybe back on the upswing, but again, all four of those acts have just as much to do with indie rock.)

I also agree with Glenn that it's messed up that Katy Perry didn't get at least one album vote (especially when she placed two singles in the Top 40.) Also was really surprised Ne-Yo wound up way down at 51 -- thought he'd be Top 40 for sure, though it was partially my own fault for not voting for the guy, I guess. (Badu and Saadiq took the only r&b spots, with Al Green also coming close at #47. Outside of Green and Jeezy, 41-50 is all indie too, assuming the category still includes Death Cab and Beck and Elbow, and I don't know why it shouldn't.)

Actually, Escovedo's an old fart too obv (and I guarantee he pulled in the old-fart-critic vote; I'd wager that his average-voter-age skews higher than anybody else in the Top 40, Newman and Dylan and Byrne/Eno included. Album isn't bad, by the way.)

Yeah, if you'll notice, I was complaining about quality of hip-hop albums, rather than quantity. As you say, five is about par for the course.

all four of those acts have just as much to do with indie rock.

And I'll disagree with this, I'm not sure what Hercules have to do with indie rock other than being on/produced-by DFA (who have been releasing a lot more dance than rock lately anyway).

In good news, "Happy House" placed and all of it's voters are excused from any other P&J related sins.

although WTF at "75 Bars" only getting one vote?

wasn't really a single IMHO. The singles were shitty "Birthday Girl" and shity stupid sad b-girl Wale song.

I think it kinda had "street single" status or something like that. At any rate, they made a video for it and promoted it, good enough for me.

q tip can still rap fine

I'm not sure what Hercules have to do with indie rock

Antony, for one thing. And Nomi had connections to CocoRosie, right? And I'm guessing their audience (at least in the States) is more indie than dance/ electronica; seems to me they arrived through indie-rock distribution and promotion channels, even if they don't sound indie rock. (Which depends on whether you think of Arthur Russell more as an art guy or a dancefloor guy, maybe.) I could be wrong, though (I haven't done any audience surveys) and I'm probably splitting hairs, either way. Just saying no "pure" techno acts (whatever that is) scored on the Pazz & Jop chart, as far as I can see.

Oh yeah, forgot about the obvious Antony thing.

Guess Girl Talk could count as dance/electronic, too (but he's got an indie element as well, obviously.) And I might have missed one or two others, who knows. (No idea what Frightened Rabbit sound like.)

I do tend to call these things more by "what do they sound like?" than by "who is listening to this?" because that just leads to any number of rabbitholes. Also, if indie-electro acts like Hot Chip and Cut Copy get to count, then surely indie-electro acts like M83 & MGMT do.

But yeah, splitting hairs, etc.