Lady Gaga - ARTPOP [2012]

yea Doctor Casino, jordan and lex all otm re BTW and FM

there are definitely moments on FM that changed me. like forever.

not sure what to say about artpop the title

That's a good insight, Doctor C. I don't agree with it at all though, mostly the part about Gaga being a force of nature. Forces of nature don't release to my ears so many crap singles.

really the only songs on that album I would ever actively choose to play are "Government Hooker" and "The Edge of Glory" (I wouldn't turn off "Born This Way", "Bloody Mary" or "You and I" if someone else played them)

This is pretty OTM, though I'd bump up all three of those "wouldn't turn off" songs to "would not skip past on my own iPod" in addition to maybe "Judas" and "Heavy Metal Lover."

In other words, I still like that album at least better than The Fame, fuiud.

yep

That's a good insight, Doctor C. I don't agree with it at all though, mostly the part about Gaga being a force of nature. Forces of nature don't release to my ears so many crap singles.

― a regina spektor is haunting europe (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, August 6, 2012 7:47 PM Bookmark

YMMV I guess - - - I think this is a pretty damned solid run:

Just Dance
Poker Face
LoveGame
Paparazzi
Bad Romance
Telephone
Alejandro

I mean, the only one of those that I'd rank as sub-par is "LoveGame," but maybe it can get some bonus points for non-US "Eh, Eh" which I find very charming and hooky. Is there another pop act right now, working at her scale, with such a consistent string of singles straight out of the gate?

only like "Just Dance" and "Alejandro" from that sequence.

holy moly, well yeah in that case, definitely not your cup of tea!

Bad Romance --> Telephone is probably the best one-two of her career.

that run was undeniably huge chart-wise but i only really loved "Bad Romance" and liked "Alejandro," came around to a couple of the others after hating them initially. definitely prefer BTW's run of singles as inconsistent as it is, and enjoy BTW a lot as an album.

although Casino is definitely otm that BTW was too big to fail but managed to fail in the sense that it took the wind out of her sales, blew all that powerful momentum she'd had for a couple years.

Bad Romance --> Telephone is probably the best one-two of her career.

Yup.

took the wind out of her sales

typo or pun?

lol typo

I would like to read more about how BTW stopped her momentum or stripped her of lustre (not being sarcastic).

i mean it was the 2nd best selling album of '11 behind (WAY behind) Adele, but the fact that anyone could upstage her in her preordained year was pretty damning (xpost)

I mean, is there really a sense that BTW reduced her to an "ordinary musical act"? The album went double platinum and produced four consecutive top ten singles.

Not everyone here likes "Hair" and "Government Hooker" as much as I do but those are the kind of batshit moments I want from forces of nature, and both were the first time she convinced me she had it in her.

yeah but it was also concurrent with someone previously considered not on her level having 6 consecutive #1s (xpost)

or i guess 5 consecutive, 6 non-consecutive

oh she'll never work with Dr. Luke and has been working less and less w/ RedOne. clunkers, though, yes, probably.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

― Diary of a Whiney Kid: Dog Days (some dude), Monday, August 6, 2012 5:43 AM (13 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Can I get the underlined portion in writing?

seems like what made much of BTW ordinary was the production + lack of nuance in the songcraft. whereas those things made Edge Of Glory a success, they hindered a lot of the album.

well hey maybe you know something i don't, but iirc last year Luke signed a deal to work exclusively with Sony artists (which Gaga is not)

in a way i think BTW's performance was similar to Beyonce's B'Day -- came at a point when they seemed kind of unstoppable and there was a building expectation that they'd have a "Crazy In Love"/"Bad Romance" megahit out of the gate every time, negative reaction to "Deja Vu"/"Judas" not being that got a little over the top, album ended up with some chart-toppers and a healthy run of moderate hits anyway.

kind of surprised she didn't go with someone like 'artpop' for the LAST one since that was around the time she and kanye were buddying up and unsubtly putting themselves in the lineage of warhol

er someone = something

So it's the age-old "perception" problem. Do any of her fans think the success of Adele sullied Gaga's? While I'm sure both artists enjoy some overlap, I tend to think Gagas regard the Adele buyers with suspicion, kinda like Madonna vs. Mariah Carey in the nineties.

i don't think it's just Adele per se, so much as the sense that she's not even keeping pace with people she was considered way out of the league of like Katy and Rihanna

I mean, is there really a sense that BTW reduced her to an "ordinary musical act"? The album went double platinum and produced four consecutive top ten singles.

― a regina spektor is haunting europe (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, August 6, 2012 8:23 PM Bookmark

Well, this is sort of what I was trying to get at - - that despite these really massive, imperial superstar sales, I feel like, on the ground, the sense that Gaga is super exciting and Where It's At has considerably diminished. Maybe I'm just hanging around the wrong people, but the general level of excitement and interest is lower. Plus, I'd say that at least some of the chart success was momentum-driven (plus steep discounts on release day for the album) - - feel like anything she'd put out at that moment would have debuted at #1. I actually have come to like BTW as a song, but I know a lot of people who thought it was kind of a loud and insistent bore.

Would also say that on Fame and Fame Monster there was this balancing act between persona and music, where the weirdness would show up around the edges of the lyrics but really be all over the place in the performances and public appearances. She definitely had a distinctive lyrical voice - "adult," unapologetic, embracing of trashiness without being cutesy and stupid, etc., etc., - but the themes of the songs were things lots of people could relate to. The apex is probably the "Bad Romance" -> "Telephone" one-two punch - - both kind of super weird songs but also exTREMely hooky and leaning on scenarios the audience can relate to: there are a lot of bad romance paperbooks on the shelf, after all, and "Telephone" is an everygirl story blown up to monster size by production, guest star, and video, as I think I was rambling about back on the general Gaga thread.

I feel like Born This Way mostly held the balance on the singles, although I think "Judas" is a bit too removed to really hit home for most people ("I'm just a holy fool?"). "Born This Way," of course, deliberately swings away from a mainstream-appeal scenario and goes for a queer pride thing, which I think is tremendously to Gaga's credit. But the album tracks sort of lose that thread, for me - "Scheisse," "Government Hooker," "Highway Unicorn" - - I appreciate their nutsiness, I'm a fan of batshit weird wrapped up in a pop kitchen sink, sure, great, but is that what the worldwide, millions-strong audience was looking for? I'm not sure. Basically this is a really long and not really that convincing way of saying that I think the singles stayed strong so the big sales kind of mask a sense that, by and large, it was received as a dud album. IMHO!

sorry, that's kind of full of holes - though i stand by the final takeaway

No, I can follow you. We just disagree. I was and am contemputous, for example, of "Born This Way" precisely because of the queer pride thing.

Also, stepping away from the music and just talking persona/star-text - - I argued on the main Gaga thread that a lot of her appeal as Big Pop Weirdo was that people admired/envied the amount of fun she seemed to get away with, with the crazy costumes and goofy interview answers and all that kind of thing. You wanted to be that bold; she made it very appealing. The Born This Way era, and I'm just spitballing, but she didn't necessarily make it seem as fun to be Gaga. The videos were bleaker, darker, Serious Artist Is Serious affairs, and the arch themes, personal symbolism, German impressions, and so on of the music contributed to a sense of "she's leaving us behind" - - - - maybe? Really have nothing with which to back this up. Just generally she seemed less vivid and colorfully and full of fun.

Did you think "Marry The Night" wasn't fun

i didn't, prob one of my 2 or 3 least fav songs on the album

"Marry the Night" grew on me, I'd put it in the top quartile, but the video was exhausting if I'm thinking of the right one. Not Fun. I think "You and I" is the only straight up, no shenanigans, swing-for-the-bleachers crossover attempt. Pretty sure it'll be the long-term catalogue seller from this set (besides Born This Way).

btw here's my previous remarks on gaga's "fun factor" if it adds anything:

I think the fandom for her is still more visceral than you suggest, for many people... if Swift is best friend, Gaga is platonic girl crush. People want to BE her because she's so COOL and gets away with doing strange and wonderful things that you are too shy and ordinary to do (until you go to college and join some burlesque troupe or whatever). The details of what those things are - the bewildering forest of her "aesthetic self-construction" - provide lots of interest and give you something to link to almost daily on Facebook ("Grammy dress! heart gaga").... but people think she's *awesome*, not just intellectually interesting, etc.

Besides, I mean, again setting aside star-texts just for the moment, look at the songs - "Eh, Eh" for example is almost completely lacking any arch-ness and irony, and the dress-up for the video is familiar imagery of hyper-Little-Italy-land, about as elaborate as Swift putting on nerd glasses. The narrative is a completely straightforward romantic situation - she had a nice romance going, met somebody else, is excited about this somebody else, and is still kinda bittersweet about having to say goodbye to the other person. That story is WELL-worn, lyrics aren't anything to write home about... but I'll go ahead and say that it feels more real and relatable to me than the Swift songs. The song didn't chart and this isn't the thread for it, but for me it's all in the title/hook - there's a lot of lived experience packed into those dismissive "Eh"s that just clicks with me. I've been there.

Or "Pokerface," which I dunno if this got run into the ground upthread, but this is a song about pretending to enjoy sex when it's kinda ehh and you'd rather be with someone else. (A woman, it turns out, but that's not heavily implied in the lyrics.) Not saying Swift has to write songs about fucking to get a "serious songwriter" pass - just that I think a lot of people who like this song like it because it's an experience they can very directly relate to. Plenty more may like it just because of the great chorus and the funny pu-pu-pu-poker face hook (that's where I got on board anyway) but the material is a TOTAL "real life" situation.

― Doctor Casino, Wednesday, February 3, 2010 11:31 AM Bookmark

I think Gaga's appeal at street level has very little to do with anybody thinking her 'art' is particularly sophisticated, but a lot to do with people admiring and envying the amount of FUN she seems to get away with having. It's a different kind of liberationary politics than a lot of people may be ready to get down with, and I'm open to the idea that it's also kind of vacuous and lacking in content or complexity, but I basically appreciate what she's doing.

― Doctor Casino, Wednesday, March 17, 2010 6:37 PM Bookmark

...and basically, I feel like Born This Way, beyond a couple of the singles, kind of was lacking in all of the above. I'm more than willing to hold out hope that the new album reverses this course - but I've worn this into the ground, sorry y'all.

I think Gaga's appeal at street level has very little to do with anybody thinking her 'art' is particularly sophisticated, but a lot to do with people admiring and envying the amount of FUN she seems to get away with having. It's a different kind of liberationary politics than a lot of people may be ready to get down with, and I'm open to the idea that it's also kind of vacuous and lacking in content or complexity, but I basically appreciate what she's doing.

Sure -- that's the appeal of good pop artists, which was why the sloganeering of "Born This Way" grossed me out.

That Gaga's been an uneven pop artist is beside the point, I suppose.

"Marry the Night" grew on me, I'd put it in the top quartile, but the video was exhausting if I'm thinking of the right one. Not Fun. I think "You and I" is the only straight up, no shenanigans, swing-for-the-bleachers crossover attempt. Pretty sure it'll be the long-term catalogue seller from this set (besides Born This Way).

― Doctor Casino, Monday, August 6, 2012 9:04 PM (14 minutes ago) Bookmark

oh man "You And I" was the biggest botch of them all, worst video AND nobody really likes the studio version as much as the live version. "Edge of Glory" will definitely always outsell it.

*ahem* i like the studio version much more than the live version. the sheen on "you and i" is magnificent whereas on too much of the rest of the album, it is drastically over-polished.

but the video is one of the worst i have ever seen.

The main mistake with the Born This Way era, was not releasing "Edge Of Glory" as the second single. It would have been so huge after "Born This Way" the single.
"Judas" was a bit too weird and too similar to "Bad Romance". It flopped and was the first time Gaga stumbled. So they rushed the release of "Edge" with a disapointing video that seemed like no effort went into making, that made Gaga's star dim a bit and the album lost momentum.

Yeah, "Edge of Glory" is probably the only one that will still be in the conversation 10 years from now. Except "Born This Way," which will be annoying the Alfred's of the world for the rest of their lives, no doubt.

Part of the problem with so blatantly aping an icon is that you zoom through their career trajectory before racking up the catalog. The self-serious "persona" play and Tony Bennett collaborations while promoting your SECOND album? It's like she skipped a decade and went straight from disco dolly to Dita.

"Marry the Night" grew on me, I'd put it in the top quartile, but the video was exhausting if I'm thinking of the right one.

It should have been all cars and fire and none of the other stuff.

SHARTPOP

the one thing i find interesting about BTW is how everyone agrees it's patchy, a mess etc, but everyone's favourites and least favourites are completely different - absolutely no consensus WHICH the stand-out tracks are.

don't think it harmed or diminished her reputation at all - maybe a sense of biting off more than she could chew, but a bloated over-ambitious misstep will actually shore up one's reputation in a way more than a generic playing-it-safe album, and the tropes she played with all pretty much enhanced the "gaga brand". and the music wasn't disastrous enough for it to be seen as an embarrassment at all, apart from arguably the title track. pop fans have a tendency to impart way too much significance to one album's quality or commercial performance. if SHARTPOP is another bloated misstep then we can talk.

it still boggles my mind that people like "Judas"

the one thing i find interesting about BTW is how everyone agrees it's patchy, a mess etc, but everyone's favourites and least favourites are completely different - absolutely no consensus WHICH the stand-out tracks are.

yeah this is definitely its saving grace. we never did poll its tracks after talking about doing so a bunch, did we?

it still boggles my mind that people like "Judas"

― keeping things contextual (DJP), Tuesday, August 7, 2012 10:00 AM (9 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

^^^

ha – I suspect that if we polled BTW all of us who consider the thing a mess and who have different allegiances may still fall behind "The Edge of Glory" or (eek) "Judas."

"The Edge of Glory" is IMO the best-formed, most recognizably consensus-capable song on the album. Most of the others are either too idiosyncratic or too much of a total rip-off of "Express Yourself"

also, its best track is no longer on it