Cocteau Twins : Classic or Dud

Hahah oh my.

I have now realised if she had done The Spangle Maker, Hitherto or From The Flagstones then I think I would have physically wept. And cursed humanity. And gone hone and died.

I am looking for minor plusses, she didn't butcher my absolute favourites. (Say it out loud, never liked Pearly Dewdrops that much.)

I'm not a huge fan of Harold Budd but doesn't that packaging remind you of running to the record store every time a new 4AD came out?

I'm such a stan for Head over Heels...I guess because it is so un-pop and everyone likes the more accessible albums. I like the crazy sludge of it.

I have no horse in the race - I don't go to reunion gigs as a general rule though I will say that Mission of Burma have basically written the textbook on How To Do A Reunion And Emerge With All Your Dignity Intact - but I have to say that lines like this

The audience doesn't help, as it mainly comprises late 40s/50somethings that look like the closest they've got to live music since the days of their youth was watching Alan Metcalfe down the wine bar doing Mary Hopkin numbers

cast a cloud of suspicion over the rest of the review; it's the sort of observation that suggests the author was looking for something more than music from the gig, which the gig could only have delivered by featuring a fountain of youth at the entrance.

Think what you like -admittedly that's the sort of thing in a paid review that would raise my hackles too - but it was one of the strangest crowds I've seen. The woman from two doors up the street was there, for example, and she never goes out to see music.

Take my Bad News reference out and think instead that I'm trying to evoke how old EVERYBODY was. Like they were searching for your fountain of youth, or their own, preserved in amber since 1990.

Also when you're told to TURN UP AT 7 WITHOUT FAIL for a show with no support that doesn't start till 8:45 and with only one room then there isn't much else to do but observe other people.

Where's the DiS review/discussion? I cant see a thing.

I know it's not what this revive is about, but there's something just overwhelmingly sweet about that Columbus, Ohio news spot--the open-mindedness and optimism are like a best case scenario for the stereotypical "liberal media."

Thanks so much for the review, aldo, even if it confirmed my worst fears about Liz' current state as a performer.
I can't help but think that there are very few scenarios outside of reuniting with CT in which she could give a great performance - and even that would seem to depend on many factors. What a beautiful tragedy, her musical relationship with Robin Guthrie.

I don't think she's doing herself any favors (as a musician) with the company she's keeping these days (her 'touring band'). I tend to find her infinitely more effective as a singer when she's working with a very singular sound palette. And really, what are the chances that a standard rock band set up is going to achieve something half as striking as CT?

So, her voice is not what it used to be. I don't think that stopped her from turning in knockout performances with Massive Attack (as recently as 2006). Short of a one-in-a-million chance that CT could successfully reunite and capture that lighting again, I think Liz could still do some beautiful work with the right electronic producer.

I could see a Burial collaboration producing stunning results - especially now that his work has veered into more ambient territory.

I've been thinking about this and I think it might be a little unfair to be disappointed because it wasn't a Cocteau Twins gig, which is kind of what you're saying aldo. I mean, I get why! But I think its fair that she should be allowed to move into new territory and if her voice is gentler now, then well, thats as it is. TBH I'd rather that that the bizarre scatsinging donkey-yelp phase she went through during the mid 90s tours.

I mean, even the Massive Attack stuff was just her quieter higher register (esp on "teardrop"). Last time I think Ive heard her really belt something out was that bootleg "all flowers" thingy she did with Jeff B.

You're right, and now I've slept on it again that was really one of the major factors - but to a degree making the comparison isn't surprising when half the set is Cocteau Twins songs.

OK, the reality is that the new material is Real Worlds Peter Gabriel world music stuff and is not for me. The CTs songs have been redressed in the same style. It's not something I would choose to listen to and the name Liz Fraser (which, if we're admitting she's not the same singer she was is all it is - a name) isn't enough to make me or win me over. And Song To The Siren was rotten, no matter who was singing it.

The fixable stuff needs to be - turn Liz up, turn the backing singers WAY down, turn the guitar up (and maybe add more Chorus), mix the bass properly, increase the size of the drum baffle, lose the keyboards altogether. But then that's mixing it back to how I think it should be, and not the target audience (whoever that is) so maybe don't do any of that either.

I'll be intrigued to see what other people think. I know of one ILXor going tonight and I told him not to read this, and that I wasn't discussing it with him till afterwards so his opinion won't be coloured by this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JtNPv8QypZ4

wait so there are people who like the music of the cocteau twins who think that is not awesome? ok I guess, takes all kinds of opinions. I was expecting catastrophe but that was just fantastic

I was at RFH last night. First things first, I am a mate of aldo's irl and I genuinely love him like a brother. And like all good brother relationships it means you can disagree and in this case he is wrong, with a few valid points.

He is correct about the sound level - I, too,,would have preferred it louder. He is also correct about Donimo, which was the only major disappointment for me. I think Trayce is correct here - this wasn't a Cocteau's reunion and shouldnt be approached as such but Donimo had lost most of its dynamism and had nothing to replace it. Where as Pearly Dewdrop became something else entirely. The joy was replaced by a gorgeous wistfulness. This was Liz saying 'we can't go back and that is sad, but what we have now can be good if different'. This was intelligent nostalgia and, yes, it was probably partly driven by Liz's vocal frailties, but was nevertheless intensely moving.

The new stuff was quite simply beautiful. I can see the 'real world' comparison but I was thinking more eno ambient than Peter Gabriel. And it melded beautifully into the reworked Cocteau's songs. If this stuff ever comes out on a Cd I will be first in the queue.

A word about the backing singers; they were stunning. Gorgeous voices taking the parts Liz couldn't, mainly not because of failings In her voice, but because of the vocal arrangements which were actually quite close to the recordings on most of the Cocteau's part of the set. The musicians were excellent, the sound was astoundingly clean and the 'back projections' simple and effective. A guest appearance by Steve Hackett was also welcome. Say what you like about him, that man can sure play a guitar.

Siren. I am not sure if the You Tube gets across how emotional this was. Yes, it was virtually a different song but once you get over that this reworking was magical. Actually, the major shock was that Liz sang the words correctly!

I said to Aldo last night that it was in my top ten gigs ever. That is hyperbole, but it was tremendous, moving and unforgettable. And if I could get tickets for tonight I would!

After you said that I was half expecting to say "wow, she didn't sound like that on Saturday", but I genuinely think the vocal performance there is awful. Having admitted that Cocteaus baggage coloured my opinions, I'd be tempted to admit the same baggage is colouring other people's in the other direction. From a level playing field and without the LiZ effect I think we'd all be more critical.

It does sound like a lot of the sound issues were fixed in a decent room though. And we didn't get Steve Hackett in Bath.

yeah that clip is amazing imo. but then i didnt pay to see it. looks like The Graun will be doing a rave as Alexis P was saying he was blown away.

Not to rain on any parades, but live Cocteau Twins, at least mid-tour during their later era (New Orleans '91 and Houston '94), were a very iffy proposition. Raymonde and the hired help rather professional, Guthrie chewing gum and looking at the ductwork, and Fraser doing dolphin noise improvisations that only occasionally converged on the tune. It meandered, a lot, without the measured crescendos that must have been constructed from dozens of studio takes and a lot of meth. This live performance from the same tour is a good deal better than the shows I saw:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4arnK6ZFck

After you said that I was half expecting to say "wow, she didn't sound like that on Saturday", but I genuinely think the vocal performance there is awful. Having admitted that Cocteaus baggage coloured my opinions, I'd be tempted to admit the same baggage is colouring other people's in the other direction. From a level playing field and without the LiZ effect I think we'd all be more critical.

I've always appreciated the Cocteaus but have never been a massive fan/follower; in fact, I just started getting Cocteaus albums beyond Milk and Kisses 3 years ago. That performance was... okay? It was very tender and deliberate and obviously meant a lot to the crowd but "Song of the Siren" is a song that I liked a lot more when Messiah sampled it so it never had major emotional impact for me; this rendition basically hit me the same way as the original.

I think she did what she set out to do, and that thing is something that I only ever sporadically get on board with, so I guess in a totally blase way I'm siding with aero here.

I was there tonight and I'm with guilty_boksen. The new material was really extraordinary. I was thinking... Bill Nelson on "Gone To Earth", Philip Glass sopranos (the BVs)... and, wow, Liz (maybe not Robin) is the one with the melodic gift. The mix was great, she sounded terrific and they could have ditched the Cocteaus material and I'd still have loved it.

^^ What he said. Loved how this line-up reclaimed the Cocteaus from being merely proto-shoegazers, and instead suggested an altogether richer, stranger avant-pop act - the missing link between Another Green World and Bitte Orca. Loved the Fripptastic guitarist. Loved the pound-shop Eno guy on keys. Loved the new material, which seemed oddly redolent of Billy Mackenzie and Barry Adamson. All in all probably the best gig I've seen in the last five years. Strangely grateful to Aldo for making the sheer excellence of it all such a glorious surprise.

Invoking Billy M is good enough for me!

that 'song to the siren' performance is awesome!

i did watch the other guy's video of her doing 'pearly-dewdrops drops' from the same set tho and yeah her voice is barely audible on the chorus

the guy's other video*

Glad you all had such a good time. Maybe just the sound in Bath was that bad, Liz' nerves affected her performance, etc etc.

Somebody on DiS saying that the sound was better last night than on Monday, so maybe Bath was just the first step on an evolving route. Wish I'd gone to one of the London shows now.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2012/aug/07/elizabeth-fraser-review?newsfeed=true

I feel oddly conflicted watching that "siren" youtube clip. She loooks like someone's granny in that outfit, but I remind myself she's always dressed in an endearingly oldfashioned way so I cant o_0 about it now.

I see aldo's point now though; she really isnt making any attempt at all to belt a note, going purely off that clip (not that this song was ever one where that was the case). It isnt disappointing: the frippertronic guitar was gorgeous, and it was an arrangement I really liked! But she really wasn't a powerhouse like she used to be. I will be fair though, its been a very very long time since she last performed and cut her a break, people get older etc.

Even for her recent milder singing that was very subduded. Curious.

Watching that other guy's clips, the new songs are way better for her new singing. Its like David Sylvians recenter stuff. I always said those two should work together.

ugh the Athol Brose one tho. Backing singers! Pipe down!

The mix from my seat was just right wrt the backing singers; they were barely noticeable and were only shading and echoing and augmenting. I did think at the time, if Kate Bush hasn't toured for 30 years because (amongst many other reasons) her studio vocal arrangements were too complex to reproduce live, then here's a solution. I was pretty alarmed at the idea of backing vocalists (when we've all come to hear The Voice) but it totally made sense.

Yeah, one or two Cocteaus songs were pretty pedestrian, but it was all about the new stuff, which is so much richer that anything she's put her name to since about 1988 and, at the same, really not Cocteau-like at all.

I think the issue might be what you touched on, with her its about The Voice - regardless of the music vehicle - and that shouldnt remain the case, really. I did really like those new arrangements! I was reminded of Sylvian and Dolphin Bros and even Porcupine Tree, a bit.

I am now pondering her workign with King Crimson, and that way madness probably lies.

that song to the siren is amazing. performance was very david sylvian, band-wise. I think I would have died at this gig.

That performance was like watching Dame Judi Dench Goes Ambient. Cathartic Liz Fraser always thrills me. Precious Liz Fraser? Sort of bores me.

I don't know - it was both precious and cathartic at the same time? I've seen Lost Highway too many times so a certain Lynchian trippiness came into it for me as well, more or less uninvited :) Also think youtube doesn't quite do it justice...

Dame Judi Dench Goes Ambient

i would buy ten copies of this record

dame can dance

Ain't that a smack in the calfskin.

i wonder why she never played live since; i wonder if she read this thread.

Haha, welcome back, Hitler reacts meme! This is a good one:

http://www.brooklynvegan.com/archives/2015/09/return_of_the_d.html

1987 looks like a big blank space in the history of the band, surprising how heavy their output was in the preceding years. What were they doing in that year? (Besides a great deal of coke in the case of poor Robin Guthrie.) Did they tour actively in 1987 even if they weren't putting anything out for nearly a two-year period?

They bought a unit in a warehouse in North Acton and built their own studio, roping in Dif Juz to do the plastering :) I think they just spent a chunk of '87 doing that.

Crushed was on Lonely As An Eyesore in '87, but I think that dates from the Love's Easy Tears sessions.

they were just really into Inspector Morse that year

Guthrie was doing some producing that year:The Gun Club. AR Kane.

Guthrie was doing some producing that year:The Gun Club. AR Kane.

They didn't tour for 3-4 years in the late 80s.

While I'm here... here's 50 odd Cocteau Twins gigs!

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLVLv8TgfCZGTMigjTfEiBxROjN8CT_Rx1

Holy shit, thanks

This is accurate.

Created a new TikTok challenge: Cocteau Twins sing-a-long pic.twitter.com/mWSgm0MvLC

— rebekah entralgo fernández (@rebekahentralgo) July 30, 2020

That’s great.

I have been enjoying that tweet all morning