a divorce thread

fwiw Jacob seems like an all-right dude :)

YES!

My divorce was relatively painless. We get along better now than we ever did.

Because honestly I've never had any friend, male or female, who I thought got more interesting or cultivated over time.

Yeah I'm doing a terrible job of defining that, sorry. Maybe...you get interested in things that you didn't know about before, and from those new hobbies or interests you learn stuff that makes you more complex, makes more opportunities for future mental connections. Or you meet new people and from those people learn about new ways to be, that makes you more flexible or nuanced in relationships and in understanding others. Or...you realize that all your life you've had a mental or emotional block that has hurt your relationships to people or to creativity or something, so you spend some time thinking about the cause and how to grow past it or heal or w/e. You contemplate how far you've come and where you're going and adjust your mental state to strive for a healthier um attitude to the world? Just...living with an eye to these things and not to, like, what's on tv and doing the same thing tomorrow that you did today.

UGH SORRY is that vague enough?

― check the name, no caps, boom, i'm (Laurel), Friday, 27 July 2012 22:24 (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

this is all otm! & not super hard to get i don't think? a relationship takes more work, to be healthy, than just coexisting next to one another. & there's no reason that someone you meet when you're twenty would be someone you click with when you're thirty, because people cycle through changes for all that time. but still being curious, & still trying to evaluate what makes you happy, and whether another person is happy, and how practising what makes you happy fits with your ability to effectively relate to another person, and what would be best for a relationship directionally are all really important. this isn't an eyeroll at schlumpy guys who sit on the couch all day & let things pass by; i think it's just as easy to keep things as they are out of a deep contentment, not out of fear - out of a recognition that the status quo of a relationship is still superior to whatever you had as a single person (i remember vertiginously realising that i liked snuggling way more than i liked a bunch of the intellectual pursuits with which i'd previously filled my time), out of satisfaction. but it seems like a sensible & minimal goal to make sure that something that could ebb is nurtured, & that an affection and magnetism towards one another, an ability to relate to, & feeling of kinship & attunement towards, a partner is sustained, not just counted on. i know this sounds lecturey & this is not the secrets of my thirty-five year constant backmassaging marriage, it's from a history of a comfortable inertia that screwed things up. i just think there is a way you can be better than yourself as part of a pair, spend all your time trying harder, giving more. & some of that has to be in staying vaguely aware of the distance between working out what you need & what your relationship needs.

seems weird to marry someone with the expectation that they will later be a different person from the one you married, i dunno

― 40oz of tears (Jordan), Friday, 27 July 2012 20:43 (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

like this is weird to me: obviously the person will later be a different person, because you are not the same person when you are 25 as when you are 45 or 65 or whatever. even if you think that we have an immutable human core or w/e, your priorities change so much & there's no reason to assume that that's going to just naturally be in sync with a partner's development. i am sure people grow in different directions & grow apart, but wrt one person changing & the other just not, i feel like some of that rests on their inertia (whether romantically governed or w/e).

I married a divorced woman whose previous marriage had lasted ten years. Ours has now lasted 28 years. She appears to have no regrets in either case.

I was wondering what happened there, thebingo. Glad things are ok now.

I feel like I'll never get over my divorce. Barely talk to my ex now as she remarried and has a child and one on the way and is mostly living the life she wanted so it turned out ok for her. I miss her everyday. We've been apart 9 years.

Schlump and laurel otm

^^

Man, so we have our first friends who are getting divorced with child. Guy was a good stay-at-home dad but a terrible husband (got them into debt, may have cheated, failed to look for a job even though she didn't earn enough to support them, comes from a bad home, etc.), woman contributed to the problems somewhat by not wanting to make an effort to fix problems early on before they got worse, but she's doing the right thing by leaving him afaot.

But we just visited them for the first time and she has this new boyfriend (divorce hasn't even gone through yet) who is EXACTLY LIKE HER HUSBAND -- looks like him (tbh a much less good looking version) and is the same dreamy childish charmer type that will cause them the exact same problems. It was actually uncanny and creepy -- the guy has some very striking and specific similarities to her husband. The whole thing is sad and painful to see, and I feel for their three year old more than anyone, because as bad as the marriage was this guy was great with his son and in any case its his father.

One of my favorite law professors, an old guy who had been married to the same woman since he was 20, told me "A lot of people who divorce really shouldn't bother, because when they remarry they just marry their exes again."

My sis never got divorced but she was with someone long enough it might as well have been -- and her ex ended up marrying someone who looked a LOT like her.

painful subject

We were kind of debating whether to give her a "what the hell are you doing?" talk. BF was a nice enough guy (although he was so obviously on his best behavior to impress his divorcing gf's old friends that it was hard to tell), but he was basically a jobless artsy dreamer type with probably a lot of the same personality flaws as the husband. Like, if money and responsibility were huge problems in your marriage WHY ARE YOU DATING SOMEONE WITH THE SAME PROBLEMS BEFORE EVEN FINISHING THE DIVORCE? If not for there being a toddler in the picture I'd probaby leave it alone but.

that sucks, hurting. i'd do the talk, but that's me as an outside observer.

Guy was a good stay-at-home dad but a terrible husband (got them into debt, may have cheated, failed to look for a job even though she didn't earn enough to support them, comes from a bad home, etc.)

First three i understand, but "comes from a bad home"? Please tell me you don't hold that against him.

I come from a bad home too. Good thing I'm not married since I'd make a shit husband evidently....

yeah I think my wife said something gentle along the lines of "take it slow."

Sorry about the "bad home" comment, didn't come out right. My dad came from a difficult family situation too and he's a great dad and husband. With this guy it's a little more complicated -- it's not just that he has bad male role models but that his crazy family is still around and messing with things and causing her problems.

no prob, i understand. It's just that if you've grown up in a dysfunctional family (or are close to someone who has), it stings when i hear or read things like that. I've had employers, potential dates, and others not want anything to do with me because they were skittish about my background, things that were done by other people and were completely out of my control.

Isn't dating similar people fairly common?

A friend of mine came back into town once after breaking up with his girlfriend. He came up to my apartment with this girl and I had to take him aside and say, "I thought you broke up with so-and-so." And he says, "I did. That's not her!" They looked and talked almost identically.

I'll cop to dating the same kind of girl over and over. Sunny's the only one who's not like the others and that's likely the reason we've stuck together.

One of my favorite law professors, an old guy who had been married to the same woman since he was 20, told me "A lot of people who divorce really shouldn't bother, because when they remarry they just marry their exes again."

― bert yansh (Hurting 2), Monday, August 20, 2012 2:47 PM (4 hours ago)

i know someone who is currently doing that exactly

my best friend called a couple weeks ago, i knew she had some news, was super anxious all day that she was gonna tell me she was pregnant - but it turned out she had finally left her awful husband! so happy for her. unfortunately, it happened the same week a v v close relative died, she is having a rough time of it. probably didn't help that one of the last things her childless aunt said to her was basically "my dying wish is that you hurry up and have a baby".

i am sorry that her aunt died, but ugh that is a bullshit thing to say

yeah i had to refrain from commenting on that - they were v close, esp because her family life has/is pretty fucked up, her aunt was like a mother to her. but that kind of pressure is bullshit. idk i think the net result was good - my friend's marriage had been fucked for a long time, but she wasn't able to make a decision and the husb was pressuring her for babies so she'd gone off the pill as was counting days in her cycle and avoiding sex when necessary (so crazy!!!) - but when her aunt said the above, it made her realise that for real she had to get out bc she did not want this man's kids, ever.

First three i understand, but "comes from a bad home"?

Sadly, he's on target. There are exceptions (my dad) but having to carry that background, it is very difficult to shake it off. Even my dad is still suffering from it. And even though he's a really great dad (and I guess husband, though my mom would sometimes vehemently disagree), there are influences from the past that trickle through.

I hope I never divorce, I really have a great husband. Sure we sometimes have problems. But I guess one thing I learned from my parents: even having terrible periods, sticking together is the best.

One sad thing is seeing how many people divorce these days and so quickly. Yikes. My kids are (or rather were) in kindergarten and there already you have so many parents who are divorced. I mean, shit, that is so sad. Some kids really suffer immensely from it. :-(

i hope i never get divorced either but not so sure sticking together is always best. our parents had a long happy marriage but both my siblings got divorced. my sister and her husband split up acrimoniously, were divorced for five years, and then got back together! they now seem happier than they ever were before, like they worked out whatever had plagued them during the first 15 years of marriage. their kids, early teens then college now, seemed bemused by the split but they've always been reserved/quiet types. my brother otoh got married young and divorced after 13 years. he and his wife seemed miserable during the last few years of their marriage and instantly became easier to deal with, like a weight had been lifted. their kids were younger and the split affected them negatively afaict, even though their parents remained a united front and didn't put their 2 daughters between them. both are in their 20s now, doing well, maintaining healthy relationships w/both parents. my brother's ex re-married (to an old hippie-totally out of character) while he remains single and seems to have given up on dating. but he's not pining away, that's for sure.

bottom line is they were both lucky, cause divorce is devastating and should be avoided but it doesn't have to be a death sentence

I hate to sound all family-first conservative, but I think a lot of people don't take the vows of marriage seriously enough -- there's this tendency to constantly happiness-check and love-check -- "Do I still feel it? Am I satisfied? Am I getting what I want?" that I think pushes people apart more quickly. IMO a lot of the POINT of marriage is that you agree to stick out bad periods and down periods and periods where you're not head-over-heels and periods where you're not 100% satisfied (not to mention periods of financial difficulty, stress, illness, etc.) -- that's what commitment means. You agree to do that because it strengthens both of you and your children as well. Of course there are toxic situations that don't strengthen people at all, and there are problems that don't deserve working through, and there are scenarios where one partner doesn't even want to TRY to work out problems. But there are also ways in which bad feelings about a marriage can be reflexive -- the more you think about what you're not getting, the more dissatisfied you get, the more resentful you become, the less willing you become to try to work with your partner to find solutions, etc.

I think a lot of people don't take the vows of marriage seriously enough

i agree - my friend mentioned above should never have gotten married in the first place but
1. her husband made a really elaborate proposal that she later admitted she wanted to say no to but didn't have the guts
2. there was a major incident of his assholery about a month before their wedding, but she refused to call it off because it was her "only chance" at a "fairy tale wedding".

dear god

yeah i love my friend, she is one of the best ppl i know, but when she told me all this stuff i was like.... WHAT ARE YOU DOING. but there were some other factors at play, too.

but she also pulled some asshole moves of her own, in order to engineer this final separation - she couldn't pull the trigger on making a final decision about staying with him or leaving, so she did some pretty dickish stuff so ensure it would happen.

that's really sad, must be a lot harder to watch when it's a close friend

Most "fairy tale weddings" in my experience are indeed a fairy tale, but in the wrong sense

I think a lot of people don't take the vows of marriage seriously enough

For sure. Just about every married couple in my family has separated or divorced in the last couple years (and most of the rest have ended because of death). Between that and having a relationship that seemed headed towards marriage blow up in my own face...well, 'gunshy' is too weak a word. People just don't seem inclined to stick it out anymore. Probably part of the fallout of living in a society that promotes an illusion of infinite options.

There's definitely an obsession with 'happiness' as a state of being that I notice among my friends and coworkers. Which to me is really just logically not attainable, except in moments. and that's whether you are single or in a relationship. you're never going to be permanently in a state of happiness. you're just not.

but it can be really hard for people to know moment to moment if the situation they're in, when it's unsatisfactory, is going to improve, or get worse, or stay the same. Not everyone can or wants to embrace that kind of uncertainty, and in my own personal experience a great deal of a relationship is kind of, well, founded on uncertainty. "Do I know for SURE that this person is the right person for me? No. But they are now. And I feel good about finding out."
"Do I know for SURE that this situation will improve? No. But I want to see where this goes, and I want to do that with my partner."

But I'm well aware that that kind of logic really only applies to me in my own marriage. I can't really speak for anyone else's.

Probably part of the fallout of living in a society that promotes an illusion of infinite options.

― Old Lunch, Tuesday, August 21, 2012 12:44 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Yeah, this. Being married to someone means saying "ok, I accept the possibility that I may have missed out on someone even MORE great for me [or on an amazing single life], and I accept that." Because never making any choice means missing out, too, perhaps even moreso.

xpost

That makes sense to me. There's an extent to which you really need to try to see the forest for the trees and take the long view in a partnership so that if you happen to be unhappy at this particular moment, your brain doesn't immediately go to dissolving that partnership as the obvious solution. I tend to think that people with that mindset are gonna just keep going to that same solution rather than dealing with what might actually be the source of their unhappiness (i.e. themselves).

my parents are a weird example; our family went through a pretty rough time through my teens and twenties, during which time my parents pretty much openly disliked each other. but they didn't divorce because that wasn't a thing you do, and mum had this obsession about 'staying together for the kids'...which eventually seemed kind of ridiculous since it was clear to 'the kids' that mum & dad were basically aquaintances who lived under the same roof. they're still together now, perhaps a little friendlier now than they were, but certainly nothing close to an example of two people in love in any real shape or form. Mum's openly admitted that she does not love Dad. So it's like, well, okay you're together but there's no medal for that, you know that right? I dunno. That made it sort of hard to go into a marriage myself, not really having much of a practical example of how to have one except to, you know, 'tolerate' the other person which wasn't really what I wanted. So you just kind of make your own example for yourself, and figure it out as you go.
but in general seeing my parents experience kind of makes me think there's no real right or wrong situation for any couple, it's just whatever works.

my parents are pretty similar, vg - they will never divorce because it would be too hard and complicated, and financially they'd be pretty fucked on their own. i think my stepdad could have a chance at a real relationship with someone else, but he'd never leave my mother. and my mother has no apparent inner life, isn't very loving/caring/affectionate/empathetic; i am 100% sure she would never find anyone else to put up with her.

man

my parents are so genuinely fond of each other, they are like an actual real life Cliff and Claire Huxtable

Does that make you Theo, Dan?

my parents are pretty similar, vg - they will never divorce because it would be too hard and complicated, and financially they'd be pretty fucked on their own

That's how mine are too - and a big part of the reason i never wanted to get married. To this day, the first thing that comes to mind when i hear the word "marriage" is a woman and a man screaming at each other.

Man, just1n3, that's a frighteningly-accurate description of my parents but in reverse. I hate to admit it, but (my parents') home has only been comfortable for the first time in my life since my dad died.

xxp: given birth order, I think that makes me Rudy, although I'm terrified that I'm actually Vanessa

my parents pretty much openly disliked each other.

Well, my mother hated my dad's guts. As a result she sort of brainwashed me into hating him. In hindsight I first felt guilty for hating him, then I was angry at my mom and now I realize she just fucked up. hah. I still remember that she told me:"I am not going through with the divorce because I don't want to lose our business." On the one hand I find that exceptionally coldhearted but otoh it was a good decision: they stuck together and became happy again (and then unhappy again and then... repeat ad nauseam) and it is a fact (especially) women have a crappy financial deal when there's a divorce.

I think one of the mistakes people make is not only forgetting wedding is about going through bad and good times; but that you will not be as happy trippy in love after a while. I don't miss it at all. Now I have this wonderful feeling of having a better half. Someone who knows me better than I do myself.

Also, I am exceptionally patient and tolerant. lololol (I am not being arrogant, I really am.)

I am not disagreeing with anything in specific but just positing that before divorce rates go down, we will probably maybe see some changes to what "marriage" means, practically speaking? Because the ideal of marriage as being forever and your spouse being your best friend and confidante and also helpmeet and co-parent and co-wage-earner and stuff...that happens for some people but it's too big a burden for all personality types and all the different needs ppl have? Also I'm not the historical expert but that hasn't been anything like what "marriage" meant for most of the history of marriage iirc? The world has changed a lot but the marriage ideal hasn't much.

I have been thinking about that (marriage being sth different now) and it scares me. I grew up with very few people divorcing (around me). So I still consider a marriage to be long lasting (or rather ever lasting). First time I heard about it I was in my teens and I really had no clue what it meant. I just can't change with the current times. Or at least I hope I won't. I want it to last.

actually, the "marriage ideal" has changed radically over the last few hundred years. There largely wasn't an expectation of a romantic relationship in the medieval era or earlier

xp - to Laurel
I dunno, I think it has changed and been adjusted to fit the individual needs of people all the time, it's just that people don't really dissect their relationships publicly all that much, at least not in the society I grew up in. I certainly never would.

The only marriage people seem to feel comfortable talking about is the one you described, but there are lots of irl marriages that differ from that in any number of ways.

I think about my parents too. My dad has been borderline controlling/abusive for parts of their lives, and if my mom were a healthy person with functional boundaries she'd have left him a long time ago but that wasn't an option to her so she didn't. But her life has been kinda sacrificed to him and the ideal of the nuclear family. And like in reality he is just not that pleasant a person, and even if he were less dysfunctional, he would not be an easy person to live with.

I think that about myself a lot, too, and how living w someone full-time and spending the majority of our free time together and cooperating on everything would just be an endless battle against following my inclinations or meeting my own needs? I am not that pleasant, and I am not that accommodating or selfless, and I don't say that proudly, I'm just saying that a person who would be able to stay with me under those conditions would probably not be totally healthy themselves. So...it's probably better this way? For me? I don't know how I'll end up obvs but there should be other options for romantic partnerships that aren't the kind of official marriages we've turned into the ONLY kind for the last...70 years? Or so?

There are all kinds of options. Don't spend years wondering why you don't fit into a box, yknow?

Nah LL you are probably otm and I appreciate that counter-weight (+ your earlier post above). I guess I don't have that much experience with non-traditional marriages, not having seen v many of them in action.

free floating observation:
Even people who love one another dearly and who are a good match in most ways are going to have some times in their marriage where matters get pretty grim for a time and it takes massive committment to work their way through it. imo, that's a given. Not everyone entering marriage seems to realize this.