no boys allowed in the room!!!!

yeah i don't look at the WS threads anymore, not even the vintage one

they don't make me angry or anything, just feel kind of weird about them in general, but hey *internet*

but actually moreso i'm just kind of bored by threads like that
prob the reason i don't read ILM much either... and for a while i hardly even read ILE! these days not so bad

The WS thread only serves to remind me that a lot of people on ILX that I think are pretty okay are actually not people I want to interact with. So I avoid.

anger is a strange one though, as it really does eat away at you and create more anger and make you angry at yourself. like that nu doctor who episode with the weird symbols and the devil planet. and many other stories and myths/legends. and when people say things like "only you can help yourself break this cycle," i don't think that's entirely true - i think we help each other by listening and acknowledging each other and talking back and forth, disagreements or not, more than we know. it's easy sometimes to focus on the bs though. fuck that! (sometimes i shout "fuck that!" to make it work better). this is also why i stick with 77 and ilx in gen, obv.

I'm glad for all your opinions this morning and your voices and your comments about ilx & threads & places we do or don't need to go. I think sometimes when we mostly stay away from stuff it creates the impression that it's okay, that no one minds it, and people kind of just don't *notice* that all the women have absented themselves? I think it's valuable to say every so often, I find these things/spaces objectionable and specifically avoid them because they have incurred my wrath.

i like to think i make myself present enough in other ways in other places
but that's not entirely true. this is my year of being more present tbh!

but not wasting my energy on fighting fights that i don't love, if that makes sense. like if i'm going to argue about something it's going to be because i love the thing i'm arguing for or i love the person i'm arguing with.

I think sometimes when we mostly stay away from stuff it creates the impression that it's okay, that no one minds it, and people kind of just don't *notice* that all the women have absented themselves?

I think that's super true. But then I go back to my previous point - when I have taken it upon myself to say, "Hey, this is gross and here are some reasons why you might want to do things differently" the response is... unpleasant. Like, what do you think would happen if I went onto the WS thread and voiced my objections to it? Especially given the dynamic of certain "loud" posters taking over conversations. But then again that goes back to the problem of people backing out of threads when they get stupid.

It is not unlike the tension between telling someone to ignore the bullies, and actually having a space where bullying are not okay in the first place (speaking on the internet here, and ILX specifically). The first one is a coping mechanism, and the second should be the goal. But that's not the way it works here.

"when they get stupid" meaning when the thread gets stupid, not the people. Bad antecedent there.

Yeah, it's not even the WS threads that bring the angry for me. I'm not on 77 so they're not even a ~thing~ for me.

And I don't even want to get into the threads that did just send me over the edge these past few weeks because that would involve complaining about people who would not be able to respond here. (Never mind that they've made it impossible for me to continue on the threads where they were being "loud.")

It's just how unworkable ILX becomes for me when it gets declared that it should be "rape joke apology week" or "gender is a ~real~ biological thing (and I know bcuz I am a straight cis man!) week" on the board. Especially when that comes with added extra bonus dudes telling you how you get to feel about these things, or throwing around terms like "the thought police" or pulling the whole victim routine where they pretend like they are the poor oppressed object of a personal beef because they got called on their bullshit, or the woman didn't just turn and walk away when the thread got stupid. Oh, with an added extra "you should cut this guy saying the offensive things some slack because he might not be neurotypical - even though, those times you've talked about your neuro-atypicality, that doesn't mean that anyone will cut you slack, that means people will just dismiss you as 'batshit' at the drop of a hat and disparage *everything* you say bcuz you are crazy lady" on top just for that extra bit of hypocrisy that makes you gnash your teeth.

And I end up sitting there stewing and getting angrier and angrier about it, and this anger poisons me. It poisons my life. That kind of curdled anger turns inwards and feeds/feeds off the depression. This stuff is not a game for me, this is not just idly discussing shit on the internet. It brings up all that shit that I want to forget. Stuff I have been open about on ILX, and other stuff that I do my best to never, ever, talk about on ILX.

I wonder if writing things like this makes me feel better or if it just makes other people feel worse. I hate that I seem to always come storming onto this thread full of anger.

(having internet problems tonight so this probably won't even post.)

I read a good takedown of the "thought police" crap in response to the Tosh rape threat thing. I'm badly paraphrasing, but it's more or less like:

Explaining how rape jokes propagate rape culture and harm women = being the thought police. Telling women they need to quit being so sensitive and get a sense of humor (ie CHANGE THEIR ACTUAL THOUGHTS) = totally reasonable suggestion.

I wonder if writing things like this makes me feel better or if it just makes other people feel worse. I hate that I seem to always come storming onto this thread full of anger.

I think it's important to have a place to say these things, and as for being full of anger, there's a lot to be angry about and this is a good place to talk about it. or talk about Thom Yorke's abs, whatever you need. ;)

Ha! See, it was talking about Thom's abs with other Thom-loving ladies that got me in trouble with the fanboy-police today.

But it does actually help to have someone say "you are not crazy, this anger is understandable." That does help.

aw WCC don't be down on your feelings, even though they are lousy and painful to have, it's totes valid for you to feel them. Or feel anything. All feelings are fair game.

Sooo hard not calling you by your first name btw! I don't bcz I know you got reasons but I always have to push against my first instinct.

"feelings are good (and other lies)" as Mr JT would say

I should pick some other kick-ass K name if you wanna show affection by calling me by my first name coz WCC is kinda a mouthful. Like Kurt or Kevin or Kieran or something. Hmmmm.

Hm may I note that I went on my first date in eight years on Monday? It was uneventful. I sometimes feel like I've forgotten how to read flirting – or maybe never knew how to – but it's not true and absolutely nothing was going on. We had a nice chat though. Actually the chat was boring, he talked a lot about different Excel spreadsheets he'd made about his life. I got him to laugh a lot but I just did not have any comparable Excel file stories to contribute. Anyway, it did have the benefit of: I got to meet another nice human being, and I get to tell myself that this is the gateway drug date. Now maybe more will come? Not posting on boy problems thread because it isn't a problem.

I can definitely give you Excel anecdotes. Tell him you'd like to vlookup shared interests and rank them, or something. God, I am the worst. But yay, Abbs!

Also I don't think it helped that all we did was sit in a bar and drink. At some point I was drawing pictures of different table games like Scrabble, dominoes, cribbage – I was explaining the rules of cribbage and dominoes to him, because he asked. So I got to stare at my own depictions of that the whole time like 'look at the things we could be doing.'

Congrats on yr first date! You have survived and it wasn't terrible and different things will happen w other fellows!

But yeah, that boring, no chemistry is kinda blah but it is good practice to prove you can do it. Yay for taking a positive view!

(next time bring dominoes in yr handbag so you do that?)

Yeah I guess I never knew what "no chemistry" meant before then. I kind of convinced myself he had the mannerisms and accent of a sexy professor so that I could get myself mentally psyched for a makeout session that sadly never happened.

he talked a lot about different Excel spreadsheets he'd made about his life.

I know two men well that could have had this conversation on a first date. I might be married to one of them.

If you are staring wistfully at your drawings of board games, that is a bad sign, though. But it's like an job interview for a job you don't really want - good practice.

Yes I guess I learned the important lesson that there has to be some activity in addition to beer. I was getting the cranky restless hands feeling of a knitter without their knitting, which is bad. My fault for not suggesting anything else because I knew from the start 'meet for drinks' would make me bored.

congrats, abbs! but yeah meet for drinks would not work for me at all either, don't feel weird about that

if i were to go on a date, i would take him walking/talking as that is my favorite activity and we could walk to a place that we both wanted to go and then have a drink or a bite there or a nibble or whatever. that's more than enough activity for the first time i would meet someone! don't wanna overdo it/waste a good idea on a person who's boring.

It doesn't make me feel worse - I think it's good to talk about your anger, whether in a measures logical way or in an outburst of emotion - all good as long as long as we're owning the feeling and/or figuring out how to deal with it without hurting self or others.
xp

whoops many xps!

Also, I mean, WCC you're clearly not TRYING to make anybody feel bad and the idea of having to keep quiet about our anger to avoid making people feel bad is part of the problem.

Have an of you watched the show Boardwalk Empire? We watched the first season and I don't think I am going to watch any more because the sheer volume of emotions swallowed by the women in that show is threatening to choke me to death every time I watch it. Especially the poor wife of that horrible religious nut federal agent.

That's so interesting, Jenny. I think something like that will be too much of a problem for me to watch Mad Men, tbh. I've successfully avoided ever seeing it, so far.

Dates! I have one tomorrow. It is meeting for drinks. Haha.

Boardwalk Empire is very much a dude's show. which isn't to say that it's without merit (I think Breaking Bad is very much a dude's show, too, and I love the shit out of it) but a dude's show that's set in a time that was unkind to women has a pretty big hurdle to overcome for me to enjoy it. And the awesome hairstyles/hats will only get me so far.

I haven't watched the most recent season of Mad Men, but I actually think it does okay with women. V. disappointing re: race, though.

"meeting for drinks" would be my preferred date, actually.

Yeah I mean it allows me to do two and sometimes three of my favorite things: drink, talk, and occasionally also smoke.

I'm going to do those things all evening this evening with two of my really good friends, so tomorrow I will just be doing the same things with someone who I may or may not want to sleep with.

it also allows for a quick exit if the date goes badly. i learned this lesson after bad dinner dates.

I should do this thing, too. I should try to meet someone to talk and eat (tho prob not drink/smoke) with, with a view to maybe wanting to sleep with them.

But I just cannot get over that whole thing of thinking myself so disgusting + horrible + ugly that no one I would want, would want to meet or sleep with me. Or even just, you know, hug. I have hugged another human maybe twice this year. And I'm realising, my fear of being touched, it's as much a fear of my own self as disgusting as it is terror of being violated.

Maybe the booze is necessary after all.

IDK that has been the nice thing abt online dating site, for me, people who seem like reasonable non-creeps sending messages that include 'hey you're cute.' Like I feel that's totally awful to say? That I'm just enjoying attention from strange men? But there's a context for it and it's safe, and it's been nice, I won't lie. Because my image of 'I am sexually attractive' was totally shot to hell. There's also been a lot of "GODLESS GREETINGS, WHAT DO YOUR FEET LOOK LIKE" but at least nothing too awful.

(of course now you say that I am remembering the complete sociopath who sent me the weird messages documented way back on the OKC thread and feel creped out again.)

Yeah, it's the internet, it's sometimes just an id machine.

Bog standard crepes, weirdoes and ppl w too many Joy Division records who just wanna get laid = bring it on. But it's the damn mind games and the sociopaths I can't cope with. :-/

But I just cannot get over that whole thing of thinking myself so disgusting + horrible + ugly that no one I would want, would want to meet or sleep with me.

that is a horrible feeling - have been there off and on for a while - and I'm really sorry that you're feeling that way.

my issue - that has plagued me for well over a decade - is that I'm not good enough to get past the "friend zone"

I feel a similar self-loathing way sometimes and I've been partnered up with the same person for 12 years now (with acknowledgement that nothing other than the perniciousness of the feeling is the same here). That shit runs deep, is all I can say.

everyone i know (incl myself) has always felt that way -- it has always seemed like the natural state of things. sadly. lots of negative experiences early on take decades to get past, afaict.

ok maybe not everyone but many of my confidants

oops im so sorry, i didnt know WCC's first name was off limits and i said it upthread :/

Think I am going to call you k7, WCC, because it's close to what I used to type for your name. (That probably won't actually happen.)

Roxy, I had some shit go down last year WRT my job, a public scandal and the press. And someone from the press was able to put together 2 and 2 and found me in a way that made me feel v v compromised WRT stuff I've talked about on ILX when it was still just 20 ppl who met in the pub every month. I might have a common name, but the confluence of my name, in a male-dominated job, in a small country in a small industry left me v v exposed.

So I asked for ppl not to use that name - but clearly with not enough ~politeness~ for the Entitled of ILX so rather than accept I had reasons I couldn't talk about without making the situation worse (hello! Journalists of ILX! I'm hiding my identity to keep you away!) they just decided this was yet another reason I was "batshit" and this should form the basis of a yet another clusterfuck! Because that's what you want and deserve when there are tabloids outside your office.

So even though I no longer work in that job or industry, yeah, pls do not use anything like my government name to refer to me. Thanks, appreciate it.

I have taken this thread on such a massive downer. I'm sorry, I don't enjoy it when that happens. Anyway, here is a photo of Thom Yorke's belly, perhaps we can go back to discussing attractive men and their abdomen exposure.

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m7bj27ZV1y1qb7ynyo1_500.png

I do not know if he is sucking in his gut or if it's just the angle at which he is pulling off his shirt but the little convex bit of belly that usually drives me half mad with desire is not in evidence which is a bit of a shame but basically the barrel of his ribcage excites me so much I don't really care. He is a v v attractive man and when he displays his body it makes me happy.

Need all the happiness I can get right now TBH.

Please to discuss attractive men with that little convex belly thing.

We've been watching Homicide: Life in the Streets and Clark Johnson is my current time machine crush:

http://www.celebrity8x10s.com/photos/j/Johnson_Clark_Homicide__Life_on_the_Streets_23443l.jpg

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_llfc2v7fhv1qaeogao1_500.png

He's still pretty handsome:

http://www.postcity.com/images/cache/6595a5d5903e3c68d9a83245e578e503.jpeg

once cute, always cute (with a caveat for ott surgery & dental work)