no boys allowed in the room!!!!

i was just re-watching the trailer for LCD Soundsystem: Shut-up and Play the Hits and was thinking, wow, James Murphy is not a super attractive man but i've never thought about that when i think about him, just because i really like his music, he's major, it doesn't matter, i mean, he makes fun of his looks in his songs even. anyway, of course this made me think about women in music - and the arts and everything re: talent really - and the "need" to also be attractive as well talented. :/

i have way more issues about my face than i do about my body, i also realize.

I'm with you on all the rest but I just gised James Murphy and he is totally attractive? So...idgi?

But I only like beat-up looking British Isles types. Preferably heavily and horribly tattooed. I can't understand why I have so much trouble with boyfriends....

Yeah, I've had a thing for James Murphy from the jump.

And the long-time hots for Frank Black if we're going to speak to type here.

However, this - "this made me think about women in music - and the arts and everything re: talent really - and the "need" to also be attractive as well talented" - is a really important point.

I know it happens everywhere but I remember reading a Metafilter (I know, I know) thread about MIA and within like FIVE posts it wasn't about the music but about her looks. And not even about how she is pretty but about whether she is pretty. That happens here sometimes, too, and it drives me nuts bc I like to think that ILX is better than that.

i do not have a thing for james murphy, obv!

nor frank black
shudder

Hello and welcome to my life for the past 20+ years (and if anything it feels like it's got worse since I was young in the 90s, and not better.)

x-post to carl agatha

yeah, and just personally it's just something i'm tired of worrying about - i mean, i love dressing up and putting on make-up and looking good, but i don't the time i've spent in this life worry about if i'm pretty enough not just to date so-and-so or whatevs but to actually do a thing or be a part of something or just put myself and my talents out there more. and that just needs to stop.
xps

truly, i think all people whom i like are beautiful
even james murphy ;) but really, i like his music, i like him, doesn't matter what he looks like, and the same for most people i like or whose talents i admire

it's just hard to shake the sociocultural looks-judgment baggage sometimes

No, it's just the endless men act / women appear dichotomy and how, if a guy is super-talented by not physically perfect, his talent actually makes him seem more attractive. But if a woman is a musician, it is only and ever all about what she looks like and never about her talent, and it doesn't even matter if she is physically perfect, it will become this dissection of how even that is not enough. And it's just dispiriting bullshit.

I don't think James Murphy is attractive, but I don't like his music either.

I like some of his music and I think he' pretty hot tbh.

Carl did you have the hots for Matt Pinfield?

See, it just makes me so annoyed and angry and diverted but it's like I can't even make myself ~just not react~ to it. And every time I swear I won't get involved in these discussions again, up it comes like a bad smell and I scratch, then I get beaten up for bringing it up again because, jesus christ, woman, can't you just STFU and not put your sexism-oar in yet again, but it's like... no, not until people stop doing and saying the endless sexist tropes that keep popping up like a whack-a-mole.

Hate myself for responding. Going to look at Thom Yorke's belly now.

Should really just ban myself from this thread tbh.

Woah, woah, woah! WCC nobody beat you up about anything! You were totally on point. I just googled the other dude and thought he was hot. Also since I'm not a musician I have not experienced this personally and didn't have anything to add.

That was an x-post to myself, sorry you were in the middle of those two posts, ENBB.

well, it's a feeling to feel and to figure out through thinking and talking about it. i don't always feel down about this issue, especially when i realize that my friends and social circle and general loves in life have little to do with mainstream 'appreciations'/judgments of beauty.
xp

lol OK, sorry. I was a little confused!

ultimately, i'm not into "blame society" thinking, though i used to think more like that years ago, but it doesn't help me live my life and love myself; it just distracts me from living

what's going on in how sexism plays out does aggravate and bother me, for sure, obviously since i'm bringing one of the annoyances up itt, but once i talk it out and shake the tentacles of untruth of me, things feel better. constant reminder to do in the face of bombardment though.

WCC you are OTM, and I also feel like it's got worse, but maybe I was just more oblivious. Or maybe back then there was actually a music press, whereas now there are blogs and youtube comments and horrible smug sexist dudes who've bought a domain name and even the printed music press (what little remains) is all Middle-Aged Man Bands For Middle-Aged Men* with barely a woman in sight inside or may as well just be Hello magazine

but even the zines and the local music press and the free-in-guitar-shop rags of the early/mid 90s I don't remember being quite as bad as things which seem to be perfectly standard these days

* sorry to be ageist but you know what I mean, Press Releases About The Forgettable New Albums By Classic Dudes From The Seventies Monthly. I am quite happy to listen to all the middle-aged musicians!

men act / women appear

This is the awesomely succinct crux of it. Starts with pink baby onesies for girls that say "pretty pretty princess" and blue baby onesies for boys that say "little slugger" and just gets shittier from there.

Oh, Matt Pinfield never did it for me. I loved 120 Minutes but I don't think I liked his TV personality?

I've been thinking of challenging myself more to love & appreciate & feel good about "ugly"/"interesting" instead of always pretty PRETTY PREEEEETTTTTY. When I'm not dating anyone right that minute it's a lot easier to be on board with ugly/interesting. When I start to care about being found attractive by someone, though, somehow my brain melts and I start shorting myself of what I deserve.

Also I can no longer hear the word "pretty" without thinking of the Katie Makkai monologue which I would say is the best goddamn thing you could possibly think of.

I feel like a broken record today, but what irritates me most, always, is the one-sidedness of it. That this constant chatter about women's attractiveness to wear them down or dismiss them as not musicians but eye candy. But if you, as a woman, even *mention* that a male musician is attractive, you will instantly get out the "OMG GIRL COOTIES ON OUR BOARD UGH UGH GROUPIES GROUPIES FANGIRLS WE WILL DIE OF THE GIRL COOTIES!" patrol.

As had just literally happened about on another board about 10 minutes before I started ranting on this thread.

I wish I had a button to make this stop irritating me so much, as there just seems to be nothing one can do to make it just not happen.

laurel i think that is a good idea for you

i agree about the vexing nature of this other thing, but i'm going to keep my off switch engaged so i can continue to enjoy things i enjoy
otherwise life becomes kinda joyless for me, and i can't really handle that

I respect people's decisions to stay out of spaces that make them feel horrible without accomplishing anything but it does mean a little more pressure on people who stay. Like I know that Lechera and carl and I'm sure others too just stay off threads that are gonna bug 'em and that they don't feel they need to contribute anything to. I'm sure that decision is doing wonders for their mental health. But the ability to look away might include where you are right now with your fight with the issues, though. If you're feeling like that issue is actively making your life/world worse, of course you want to wade in. It's just...the immediate damage it does to you vs working for an improvement in the world overall? Never sure how that's gonna weight out in any given sitch.

WCC, you got tagged a bit last week-ish with being the person who ALWAYS has something to say about teh wimmens, and I think that was unfair/dumb.

xp Hah!

I have just been thinking about this so much. Because it's all so tied together in a big bag of ugly issues (literally and figuratively.) Like, how damaged I got by this kind of stuff when I was still a jobbing musician. Not just that I thought it hurt my career (I can accept "I just wasn't good enough.") but that it so destroyed my self confidence, sexual confidence, all that kind of stuff. The shit that got said about me, and about my band, for daring to continue to go onstage past my sexual attractiveness date.

It's one thing to accept your body for what it is now, which is kind of a place of peace that I've got to. But that idea that I can no longer even conceive that anyone else could be physically attracted to me, ever again. I'm angry about that right now.

But this is like 10 years worth of issues, not one afternoon. I'm just feeling kinda fragile about this right now.

WCC, you got tagged a bit last week-ish with being the person who ALWAYS has something to say about teh wimmens, and I think that was unfair/dumb.

Yeah, and it just feels really unfair that the person doing that tagging got to rampage around and continue, but it was me that had to STFU and punch myself in the face over it, like I'm the person that has to leave the conversation. Always. As opposed to the people spouting the hurtful shit.

I need to go home and not think about this. Life is really joyless at the moment, for too many reasons, but this is just one of them.

Oh, but I'm not allowed to be ~angry~ because being angry isn't ~ladylike~.

I am pretty much a bottomless pit of anger sometimes. I wish I could be something else.

Well you didn't have to punch yourself in the face over it, I guess is the point I'm not really trying/failing to make. But I think there are a lot of reasons to leave hurtful people alone and not just read it as ceding them the conversation. Like your continued good health so you can live and contribute.

Like I know that Lechera and carl and I'm sure others too just stay off threads that are gonna bug 'em and that they don't feel they need to contribute anything to. I'm sure that decision is doing wonders for their mental health. But the ability to look away might include where you are right now with your fight with the issues, though. If you're feeling like that issue is actively making your life/world worse, of course you want to wade in. It's just...the immediate damage it does to you vs working for an improvement in the world overall? Never sure how that's gonna weight out in any given sitch.

This is probably mean but part of the reason why I don't bother with ~certain threads~ on ILX that go to annoying places is that I don't think the opposition is worth the effort. People (especially a certain kind of male person) on the internet (especially on the internet) are not interested in engaging and discussing. They just want to be right. There's no point in engaging in these discussions because the discussion isn't the point. The point is these dudes typing to hear themselves type and making sure everybody gets to read their super smart words. If somebody was really interested in talking about something and would actually listen to what I have to say, I'm there. But on certain issues here, that just doesn't happen.

Are there people who would like to engage in these conversations? Probably. But it's the folks who are just interested in shouting down opposition (and who have the time to post on the internet all day) who divert the attention. And seriously, fuck them.

In short, I don't the time for it and banging my head against a wall would be more constructive 99% of the time.

But if a woman is a musician, it is only and ever all about what she looks like and never about her talent, and it doesn't even matter if she is physically perfect, it will become this dissection of how even that is not enough

You know, a long time ago the WS threads used to have pictures of fully clothed (I know!) women who were writers or artists or something, and not necessarily "pretty." There might still be the occasional one there, I don't look at the threads, but it was cool when that wasn't a rarity.

For like a minute.

I generally try (try) to not to talk to anyone online I wouldn't genuinely enjoy talking to irl

You know, a long time ago the WS threads used to have pictures of fully clothed (I know!) women who were writers or artists or something, and not necessarily "pretty." There might still be the occasional one there, I don't look at the threads, but it was cool when that wasn't a rarity.

Aw that thread is the worst.

I generally try (try) to not to talk to anyone online I wouldn't genuinely enjoy talking to irl

This is a good determinant.

yeah i don't look at the WS threads anymore, not even the vintage one

they don't make me angry or anything, just feel kind of weird about them in general, but hey *internet*

but actually moreso i'm just kind of bored by threads like that
prob the reason i don't read ILM much either... and for a while i hardly even read ILE! these days not so bad

The WS thread only serves to remind me that a lot of people on ILX that I think are pretty okay are actually not people I want to interact with. So I avoid.

anger is a strange one though, as it really does eat away at you and create more anger and make you angry at yourself. like that nu doctor who episode with the weird symbols and the devil planet. and many other stories and myths/legends. and when people say things like "only you can help yourself break this cycle," i don't think that's entirely true - i think we help each other by listening and acknowledging each other and talking back and forth, disagreements or not, more than we know. it's easy sometimes to focus on the bs though. fuck that! (sometimes i shout "fuck that!" to make it work better). this is also why i stick with 77 and ilx in gen, obv.

I'm glad for all your opinions this morning and your voices and your comments about ilx & threads & places we do or don't need to go. I think sometimes when we mostly stay away from stuff it creates the impression that it's okay, that no one minds it, and people kind of just don't *notice* that all the women have absented themselves? I think it's valuable to say every so often, I find these things/spaces objectionable and specifically avoid them because they have incurred my wrath.

i like to think i make myself present enough in other ways in other places
but that's not entirely true. this is my year of being more present tbh!

but not wasting my energy on fighting fights that i don't love, if that makes sense. like if i'm going to argue about something it's going to be because i love the thing i'm arguing for or i love the person i'm arguing with.

I think sometimes when we mostly stay away from stuff it creates the impression that it's okay, that no one minds it, and people kind of just don't *notice* that all the women have absented themselves?

I think that's super true. But then I go back to my previous point - when I have taken it upon myself to say, "Hey, this is gross and here are some reasons why you might want to do things differently" the response is... unpleasant. Like, what do you think would happen if I went onto the WS thread and voiced my objections to it? Especially given the dynamic of certain "loud" posters taking over conversations. But then again that goes back to the problem of people backing out of threads when they get stupid.

It is not unlike the tension between telling someone to ignore the bullies, and actually having a space where bullying are not okay in the first place (speaking on the internet here, and ILX specifically). The first one is a coping mechanism, and the second should be the goal. But that's not the way it works here.

"when they get stupid" meaning when the thread gets stupid, not the people. Bad antecedent there.

Yeah, it's not even the WS threads that bring the angry for me. I'm not on 77 so they're not even a ~thing~ for me.

And I don't even want to get into the threads that did just send me over the edge these past few weeks because that would involve complaining about people who would not be able to respond here. (Never mind that they've made it impossible for me to continue on the threads where they were being "loud.")

It's just how unworkable ILX becomes for me when it gets declared that it should be "rape joke apology week" or "gender is a ~real~ biological thing (and I know bcuz I am a straight cis man!) week" on the board. Especially when that comes with added extra bonus dudes telling you how you get to feel about these things, or throwing around terms like "the thought police" or pulling the whole victim routine where they pretend like they are the poor oppressed object of a personal beef because they got called on their bullshit, or the woman didn't just turn and walk away when the thread got stupid. Oh, with an added extra "you should cut this guy saying the offensive things some slack because he might not be neurotypical - even though, those times you've talked about your neuro-atypicality, that doesn't mean that anyone will cut you slack, that means people will just dismiss you as 'batshit' at the drop of a hat and disparage *everything* you say bcuz you are crazy lady" on top just for that extra bit of hypocrisy that makes you gnash your teeth.

And I end up sitting there stewing and getting angrier and angrier about it, and this anger poisons me. It poisons my life. That kind of curdled anger turns inwards and feeds/feeds off the depression. This stuff is not a game for me, this is not just idly discussing shit on the internet. It brings up all that shit that I want to forget. Stuff I have been open about on ILX, and other stuff that I do my best to never, ever, talk about on ILX.

I wonder if writing things like this makes me feel better or if it just makes other people feel worse. I hate that I seem to always come storming onto this thread full of anger.

(having internet problems tonight so this probably won't even post.)