Magic: The Gathering C/D

yeah i went 4-0 last night at a local draft and have won the last couple of 8-4s i played. it seems like an easier format than DII because there are fewer decks or potential lines of play? i mean im also probably just better at magic atp too but thats how it feels rn

Well DII was definitely very interesting because certain cards' values were completely different depending on what kind of deck you got - the 1B 2/1 flying can't block guy (Interloper?) was incredible in R/B vampires and almost unplayable in U/B zombies. I haven't really seen that in a draft format before. AVR is more about exploiting synergy between specific cards; Thatcher Revolt and Flowering Lumberknot are the two big examples, but really there are a lot of 2-card combos with just commons and the occassional uncommon. Soulbound obviously influences this a lot. I still think it's skill-intensive (every draft format is) but there are a lot of bomby plays with no real answer (Goldnight Commander + Thatcher Revolt comes to mind)

My son and I played a bunch of MTG this weekend. We are both neophytes with a biggish collection of random grab bag cards. I'd like to add something fun and not too expensive to our collection but am bewildered by the options. What should I get?

I think there are a lot of "beginner" sets out there. Core sets are usually good for this as they can be fun w/o much complexity. If you're just looking for cards, most stores will have bulk commons that you can get for cheap, especially if you're at a place where people draft a lot.

On a related note, all of M13 has been spoiled, and it seems intentionally weaker than the last few sets - Ponder, Mana Leak, and Cancel are all gone (nerfing Delver), BoP is gone (huh?), and there seem to only be a couple of chase rares (Thragtusk, the new Ajani, and the 5/5 haste dragon). Actually I'm kind of excited to see what this does to Standard in 3 months.

xp pick up some of the duel decks! they have some very cool mechanics, neat interactions, and when you're bored w/ the deal makeup, you can pull out the powerful cards (generally some planeswalkers + other interesting pieces) and put them in new decks. i particularly like the Ajani Vs Nicol Bolas decks if u can find them.

barring a reprint in Return to Ravnica it looks like Birds of Paradise is finally gone...thoughts??

one of my fave alltime cards since i was a grade school student. RIP.

it would be like serra angel going out of print

serra angel was actually gone from 5th and 6th editions, I sorta left around 6th so at that point serra angel felt like it was done

duels app is doing thing thing where it crashes at the startup screen - already did this to me once and I reinstalled and lost my progress. prob gonna reinstall again. annoying, tho considering how quick the progress is it's kinda w/e.

i was a big fan of the card too, but it is kind of out of flavor for green and IMO the 'flying' part of it has always been awkward, so I understand why "it's super popular" isn't keeping it around anymore

Just bought the 2013 version of the Deck Builder's Toolkit and am very happy with it. My son and I have been playing around with it for most of the weekend. Would definitely like to pick up some more of the Innistrad-style cards as I really like the gothic/colonial designs.

M13 is pretty great to draft, it has a lot of breadth of strategy which is unusual for a core set

i have high hopes for the new Ravnica block, though they're treading on dangerous ground since the original Ravnica was their most popular set ever. the block structure and prerelease gimmick seem brilliant though

Agreed on M13 draft. It's actually quite fun and has the kind of inter-card synergy that the other core sets lacked. Alas, it seems like every time I draft it I get my ass kicked by either Krenko (who I never seem to have removal for) or Sands of Delirium (which is one of the dumbest cards for Limited, ever)

RtR is probably going to be amazing. But I would really love to see the Magic community go apeshit if the duals don't get reprinted XD

I have been watching a lot of MTG streaming lately, it's in the air I guess! Pumped for M13.

Also also I had an idea! I wonder if anyone here might go for it? It's based on:

1) Magic is the best u guys.
2) Magic is the best when you're 12 and can't just look up the best decks on the internet, that basically ruins everything.
3) Magic costs way too much money.

What if we all got MTGO accounts and made decks and vowed to only spend exactly $1 a week on cards? You could spend it or save it or whatever - most cards outside the top playables are like $0.05 on there so we'd start with complete rubbish and slowly develop this weird metagame of our own. I am totally on for this, magic is the best.

I've been saying that the internet ruined Magic for years

if enough ppl are interested, i'll participate. $1 a week definitely reasonable, esp if there's a bunch of ilxors to play w/

M13 is pretty great to draft, it has a lot of breadth of strategy which is unusual for a core set

haha the funniest thing is that after drafting AVR so heavily my first few M13 drafts i had to stop myself from going on autopilot after like 5 picks because i gotten so used to there not being any playables after that point.

every time I draft it I get my ass kicked by either Krenko

haha on sunday during i draft i opened krenko P1P1 and then got passed an arms dealer pack 2. i ended up with two arms dealers and a bunch of other goblins incl two krenko's command and went monored. of course i lost 1-2 in the finals to a dude w/ a super efficient U/w fliers deck :/

Yeah the lack of playables really makes 4-pack sealed a dumb format in AVR. And yet it's by far the best value on MTGO. Go figure.

My first M13 draft, someone got Krenko's Command, Arms Dealer, Krenko by turn 4 both games while I just stared at my hand full of Pacifisms and Divine Verdicts and silently wept

My wife recently confident to me that she wanted to play Magic real bad in the late 90s, and even went so far as to buy a few decks, but couldn't convince anyone to play with her.

confided

I've been saying that the internet ruined Magic for years

So much yes :( Totally want that schoolyard 'there's an archetype that does what?' atmosphere back again, where we are all somehow maindecking 4 flashfire to deal with rev's kithkin control deck that we can't beat any other way.

haha well you could always just play limited

I played limited today! It was funnnnn.

what did you play? I keep getting tempted but wimping out.

And it has the most absurdly complex rules for anything I have ever seen.

Ha, the thread starter really hasn't delved too much into the world of nerdy fantasy games. I've always thought Magic is pretty simple.

the basic rules of magic are pretty simple but if you want to get into the rules lawyer stuff it can get pretty complex

once you start talking about the stack...

M13 draft - opened Oblivion Ring and then went WB for ALL THE REMOVAL - 2xMurder, 2xPacifism, Public Execution, Crippling Blight and Divine Verdict. Kinda forget to get any creatures but went 2-1.

Magic is funnnnnn.

<i>what did you play? I keep getting tempted but wimping out.</i>

If you're intimidated by limited the best format is definitely sealed, as it removes a bunch of decision points, you are pretty much guaranteed to get a serviceable deck, you can experiment with different deck types in different games, and all the queues are swiss, so you should get four somewhat close matches. Plus, if you lose, you can just blame it on the other guy being lucky enough to open a bunch of bombs. Sealed events on MTGO also typically offer better EV than drafts (for example, four pack sealed does not have an entry fee and only requires four packs, so the prizes are all gravy). The best time to dip your toes into limited is actually right now, as I type this: core sets are less complicated than expansions, everyone plays sealed when a set first comes out, and since the set is pretty new, there are going to be a bunch of other people who aren't totally sure what they're doing, which means your games will probably be closer than if you tried starting at the end of a set's life.

apparently some people in nyc are pretty srs players and I need to brush up on the rules

also what do I need to bring? I have no 20 sided die or land or anything anymore!

any store will have a land box you can pull from and you can just use a notepad and pen to keep track of life + everyone will have dice to borrow if you need to, the first couple of times i just showed up w/nothing but the draft entry fee and it was totally fine

i drafted tonight as well but did p horrible, i was passed nicol bolas and just kinda went w/ it but ended up spread too thin across all three colors and my mana was horrible (despite two dual lands), i was p lucky to go 2-2

that's what I vaguely remembered but again I am pulling up memories from the 4th grade

nicol bolas is the dream everyone has to reach for. shame on whoever passed it to you

Sometimes you fly too close to the sun. I had a buddy first pick a Nicol and force those 3 colors, winding up with a really awful deck, but when he landed it's like...ohhh who's laughing now?

Also anyone on MTGO should try Momir Basic. Basically the rules are: your deck is all basic land, and during your turn you can pay X and discard a card to summon a RANDOM creature that costs X. If you're a skill guy you'll probably wind up disliking it but it's a pretty fun way to kill twenty minutes!

more limited tips - iatee you might know all this crap already but might as well have it in this thread somewhere

a useful mnemonic that people use for pick orders/card evaluations in limited is BREAD:
B = bombs. basically any card that can swing the game heavily in your favor if not immediately dealt with. large flying creatures, planeswalkers, mass removal, etc. these are usually rares and they're usually obvious.
R = removal. cards that can deal with all or most of your opponent's threats. examples: Pacifism, Murder, Searing Spear. Situational removal spells (e.g. Divine Verdict, Crippling Blight, Prey Upon) and temporary removal like Unsummon are trickier to evaluate so make sure your deck can use them properly.
E = evasion. flying, unblockable, trample, intimidate, sometimes first strike. creatures with abilities that make them difficult to block and can often break through a board stall.
A = aggressive cards. this is sort of a catch-all for solid creatures, good combat tricks, etc. look for guys with high power relative to their casting cost. also you want your early plays to be able to 'trade up' with a larger creature and your later plays to avoid 'trading down' with a smaller creature. A 3/3 is often better than a 4/2 for this reason.
D = defensive cards. yeah, sometimes you can draft a sweet control deck, but in general, especially as an inexperienced player, you're going to win more games by pressuring your opponent and putting the onus on them to make the right decisions. leave the walls and blockers in your sideboard unless they're likely to trade with something efficiently (e.g. the 1/2 deathtouch spider is actually a high pick because it's essentially removal).

Yeah that's a good start. When I began drafting a lot the only tips I got was "creature removal first, then creatures, everything else sucks". Basically the implication there was "don't take goofy creature enchantments" like so many newer players do. The problem with that acronym is that say in M13 there are many times I'd take a Fog Bank over Wind Drake even though the E is higher than D.

My only real tip for draft is to be aware of mana costs. If two cards are about equal value, go with the one that isn't a 3-drop. Because pretty much every limited format is FULL of good 3-drops. Also be weary of cards with double mana symbols (something that costs WW is tough to play turn 2, really)

specific tips for M13:

-the format is fairly slow compared to other recent sets. bears (2 power guys for 2 mana) without relevant abilities should be considered filler if you're short on turn 2 plays or creatures. don't be afraid to cut them from your maindeck.

-despite being a slow set, there isn't much color fixing so i'd avoid playing more than 2 colors

-the exalted mechanic plays a lot stronger than it looks. every creature with exalted is a solid playable, even the 0/4 wall.

-Faerie Invaders is the only common i can think of that's a potential blowout, so be wary of its existence when attacking

Also, W/G and B/G decks with exalted and tramplers (such as the 4/2 guy for 3G) can be very powerful. Like the last set with Bloodthirst, Exalted is more powerful than it looks because the set is designed to take advantage of it.

do mtg players make good or bad poker players and how strong is the correlation

let's ask d3athdr0n3

the 2 MTG/poker crossover guys i can name off the top of my head are David Williams and Eric Froelich, not sure how good they are at poker though since i don't follow that

if you don't think i have a long post on this on the way, you got another thing comin

in my experience with both (much more w/ poker than mtg tbh) some game proficiency carries over throughout a bunch of different games, but the skillsets are different enough (and the stakes and level of competition in poker so much higher than mtg) that i wouldn't expect a great mtg player to necessarily be a great poker player. i do think a great poker player could probably pick up mtg at a high level fairly quickly.

Anyway, I don't think the coorelation is strong, but I would think that MTG players turned poker players in general would be better than randoms. MTG is more about figuring out how a bunch of moving parts are going to interact while poker is more about figuring out how your opponent is going to react to a certain action and how he's going to play certain groups of hands. Case in point; if you could see your opponent's cards in poker you would never lose. In MTG knowing what your opponent has is only a small advantage. The card Gitaxian Probe lets you see for 2 life or one blue mana, plus it replaces itself. That would be like something in poker allowing you to see what your opponent has by throwing out a small blind. Plus in poker, everyone plays off the same deck. A good MTG deckbuilder is not going to get into situations often where their cards are worthless because his or her decks are going to be set up to maximize their resources. Whereas the best poker players get dealt 72 and miss flush draws all the time (regardless of what the Bond movies tell you).

The best poker player I know is really bad at Magic; he misses a lot of minor advantages all the time. The best Magic player is a guy who very rarely makes a mistake and is a great deckbuilder and he's such a huge fish at poker that we actually kind of lamented the fact that he moved away.

wouldn't you need a bunch of them in your deck though? if peek for one blue or two life was attached to er a permanent it seems like it'd be way overpowered. nb i have not played magic in ten years.

poker to me seems like a weird meta-game/superstructure of pushing counters around, the apparent 'game' part with the cards just an algorithm ... which isn't much like anything in the interlocking systems in magic, though i guess the meta-gaming/'reading people' stuff gets displaced to deck-building

its interesting because knowing your opponents hand is not actually considered to be worth a card - Telepathy has been around for more than 10 years and was never played in competitive decks

huh, fantastic. i suppose there's few ways to action it - there's no 'discard target card from opponent's hand'

there is, and its a tournament staple: http://magiccards.info/lw/en/145.html