Jeff Chang takes on Nik Cohn, old white guys, and da capo

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(not the last post, I mean)

M Matos (M Matos), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 00:01 (twenty years ago) link

??? I was just kidding. Sorry.

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 00:03 (twenty years ago) link

that doesn't seem to be what he is saying at all
the article paints talib kweli as the only hope for the future!

Well, I read the following as making the point that hip-hop wasn't inherently/originally a political music voicing the discontent of the urban oppressed (which is how your average aging liberal likes to view it when bemoaning The State of Hip-Hop Today):

"Political rap" was actually something of an invention. The Bronx community-center dances and block parties where hip-hop began in the early 1970s were not demonstrations for justice, they were celebrations of survival. Hip-hop culture simply reflected what the people wanted and needed--escape. Rappers bragged about living the brand-name high life because they didn't; they boasted about getting headlines in the New York Post because they couldn't. Then, during the burning summer of the first Reagan recession, Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five released "The Message," a dirge (by the standards of the day) that seethed against the everyday violence of disinvestment. Flash was certain the record, which was actually an A&R-pushed concoction by Duke Bootee and Melle Mel, would flop; it was too slow and too depressing to rock a party. But Sugar Hill Records released the song as a single over his objections, and "The Message" struck the zeitgeist like a bull's-eye. Liberal soul and rock critics, who had been waiting for exactly this kind of statement from urban America, championed it. Millions of listeners made it the third platinum rap single.

And I read this as saying that, erm, the politics have not disappeared from popular rap:

Yet the politics have not disappeared from popular rap. Some of the most stunning hits in recent years--DMX's "Who We Be," Trick Daddy's "I'm a Thug," Scarface's "On My Block"--have found large audiences by making whole the hip-hop generation's cliché of "keeping it real," being true to one's roots of struggle. The video for Nappy Roots' brilliant "Po' Folks" depicts an expansive vision of rural Kentucky--black and white, young and old together, living like "everything's gon' be OK." Scarface's ghettocentric "On My Block" discards any pretense at apology. "We've probably done it all, fa' sheezy," he raps. "I'll never leave my block, my niggas need me." For some critics, usually older and often black, such sentiments seem dangerously close to pathological, hymns to debauchery and justifications for thuggery. But the hip-hop generation recognizes them as anthems of purpose, manifestoes that describe their time and place the same way that Public Enemy's did. Most of all, these songs and their audiences say, we are survivors and we will never forget that.

So it's also about Talib Kweli. So what. Talib Kweli is alright. Unless you're a realer-than-thou faux-populist type.

bugged out, Tuesday, 25 November 2003 00:16 (twenty years ago) link

sorry i was being a little flippant
what i meant was that the article hardly contradicted the supposition that the writer prefers "conscious" hip hop to ja rule or whatever

robin (robin), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 00:49 (twenty years ago) link

>>during the burning summer of the first Reagan recession, Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five released "The Message," a dirge (by the standards of the day) that seethed against the everyday violence of disinvestment. Flash was certain the record, which was actually an A&R-pushed concoction by Duke Bootee and Melle Mel, would flop; it was too slow and too depressing to rock a party. But Sugar Hill Records released the song as a single over his objections, and "The Message" struck the zeitgeist like a bull's-eye. Liberal soul and rock critics, who had been waiting for exactly this kind of statement from urban America, championed it. Millions of listeners made it the third platinum rap single.<<

Yeah, but "The Message" wasn't actually the first (even explicitly) political rap single. Originally most of it slowed down a Melle Mel verse in Flash and the Furious Five's first "Superrappin'" 12-inch (where it had just jumped out of all the party lines and lemon to limes and whatnot, and was actually MORE effective). And "How We Gonna Make the Black Nation Rise" by Brother D with Collective Effort came before "The Message" (in 1981), as did "The Big Throwdown" by South Bronx, right? And maybe more; plenty of pre-"Message" rap singles depicted street violence, though none that I know of tried to make it into a Big Important Point. It was just THERE, along with all the happy stuff. If something already exists, you can't "invent" it.

chuck, Tuesday, 25 November 2003 00:56 (twenty years ago) link

The reason I liked the article was that, while it may indeed wind up focusing on conscious rap/neo-soul, it avoids doing so at the expense of gangsta/popular hip-hop and gives the latter its due.

PS I like Nik Cohn a lot--he has a good case for being the first rock critic and he wrote a few great articles that do deserve to be canonized. But while I haven't read the piece that's in the Da Capo collection, and you can't judge something on quotes out of context alone, it does sound like it's coming perilously close, stylistically at least, to Nik Tosches wankdom.

bugged out, Tuesday, 25 November 2003 01:00 (twenty years ago) link

And maybe more; plenty of pre-"Message" rap singles depicted street violence, though none that I know of tried to make it into a Big Important Point. It was just THERE, along with all the happy stuff. If something already exists, you can't "invent" it.

But I think this is the exact point of the bit I quoted! I don't think the piece is arguing that rock critics (or anyone else) literally invented political rap. It's arguing that political rap received a disproportionate amount of attention, such that it came to be considered what hip-hop was about, obscuring all the other things that hip-hop was also about...like the happy stuff. Which constitutes "something of an invention."

bugged out, Tuesday, 25 November 2003 01:07 (twenty years ago) link

(Actually, it constitutes the invention of Public Enemy, haha.)

bugged out, Tuesday, 25 November 2003 01:13 (twenty years ago) link

Okay, I can buy that. In fact, I've been saying that myself for years: The disco and party stuff that encompassed ALL early rap music suddenly started being branded as "not real hip-hop" once (often quite worthwhile at parties where people danced regardless) prog rappers and politics shticksters decided that "complexity" and "big statements" were more nutritious for you than parties and dancing. So nobody noticed when L'Trimm (say) made some of the most innovative and compelling hip-hop of the late '80s/early '90s. Etc. etc. etc.

chuck, Tuesday, 25 November 2003 01:15 (twenty years ago) link

Not just Public Enemy -- Also Boogie Down Productions. And Eric B and Rakim, and De La Soul, and Arrested Development, and Ice-T, and NWA, and Tribe Called Qwest, and Tupac, and the Wu Tang Clan, and so on...

chuck, Tuesday, 25 November 2003 01:17 (twenty years ago) link

(By the way, I've yet to read the Cohn piece, or the Chang response to it, for that matter. I was just reacting to that one quote.)

chuck, Tuesday, 25 November 2003 01:19 (twenty years ago) link

Yeah... I don't think the Chang piece as a whole argues against political rap in the way that you seem to be. Argues for it, if anything. But it does so in a non-self-righteous way.

bugged out, Tuesday, 25 November 2003 01:26 (twenty years ago) link

I LIKE a lot of self-consciously "political" rap, don't get me wrong. I just don't think rap needed to say "look how political I am, aren't you impressed?"; It was political already, and it still is. Politics is just one more element in the box; ditto violence, vulnerability, weird noises, complexity, etc. I guess what I'm saying is that these aren't things that need to be ADDED. The rappers who think they're adding them are deluded. But that doesn't mean they can't be GOOD.

chuck, Tuesday, 25 November 2003 01:39 (twenty years ago) link

Man, Chuck OTFM and then some. One thing that really struck me when I heard the Sugar Hill box for the first time was just how enjoyable most of the songs on it were more than "The Message" and how the canonizing of that song as somehow marking when rap 'grew up' (and implying that most everything before it was therefore worthless) is just plain poisonous.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 02:34 (twenty years ago) link

I heard "How We Gonna Make the Black Nation Rise" for the first time last summer. What an awesome song.

Keith Harris (kharris1128), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 04:32 (twenty years ago) link

Hey Jeff thanks for stopping by! Sorry for being so brusque but I guess rant-mode rubs off on the ppl responding.

To be honest I don't know how much you'd like Nik Cohn, but I do think you should give him a try. In some ways his voice is fairly unique too and somewhat rare, so while I'm all for inclusiveness I don't want to see certain other endangered species fall off the edge. On the other hand, I *like* Tosches style wankerdom and also some other crit styles I'm fairly sure you don't. I'm all for giving the ego trip crew et cet more space though and Danyel (though not Zadie) Smith would be a dream editor for me of a Da Capo book.

I could see maybe one article on undie/conscious/whatever-the-hell-term-you-want rap in an anthology like this but is it really representative to look for *bunches* of them? Also I do think that its somewhat of a contradiction that on the whole there's more better writing about music I find more dull (the rockist canon) than about music I find more exciting (i.e. hip-hop etc). And some of the hip-hop I find *most* exciting gets some of the *least* space for expansive thoughtful coverage (i.e. just Murder Dog or something in a capsule reviw at the back and maybe a fascinating but straightforward interview)

Sterling Clover (s_clover), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 05:30 (twenty years ago) link

Question unrelated to topic but sparked by Chang's post:

When the fuck is Junot Diaz gonna do something else? How long can one man coast on one collection of short stories?

Phil Freeman (Phil Freeman), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 14:29 (twenty years ago) link

There are at least a couple of authors out there who did that for fifty years I seem to recall.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 15:46 (twenty years ago) link

As hung-up on race as Chang seems to be, he failed to notice that 8of the 21 pieces in the current, Matt Groening-edited edition are about artists of color.

shookout, Monday, 8 December 2003 23:18 (twenty years ago) link

Also, he disses Da Capo on the same page of his blog where he singles out 'Yes Yes Y'all' as one of the better music books, and it's published by....Da Capo! Whaddaya know!

shookout, Monday, 8 December 2003 23:24 (twenty years ago) link

cultural reporter in not embracing all or nothingism shockalocka!

M Matos (M Matos), Monday, 8 December 2003 23:26 (twenty years ago) link

Yes, but it bears mentioning in light of this sentence:

"You could also invest next year in Raquel Cepeda's anthology collecting some of the best hip-hop journalism of the last two or so decades called And It Don't Stop (not from your press, I note)".

So does the fact that Da Capo has more music books on its backlist about artists of color than any other press in existence.

Also, the series clearly doesn't limit itself to "music journalists," so one of the main thrusts of his nearly racist rant is a little disingenous. I don't think the series aims to capture the state of music journalism. The pieces chosen are what the Guest Editor thinks the best writings on music are, regardless of the source, whether the authors are novelists, poets, journalists, or whatever.

shookout, Monday, 8 December 2003 23:42 (twenty years ago) link

I don't think the series aims to capture the state of music journalism.

They probably shouldn't call it "Best Music Writing 200x" then.

bugged out, Tuesday, 9 December 2003 00:20 (twenty years ago) link

Best music WRITING, not Best Music JOURNALISM.

shookout, Tuesday, 9 December 2003 00:25 (twenty years ago) link

Remind me how many angels fit on the head of a pin again, will you?

bugged out, Tuesday, 9 December 2003 00:26 (twenty years ago) link

thanks for clarifying that most music writing ISN'T journalism. and that the editors specifically look in magazines and newspapers and online for their picks.

M Matos (M Matos), Tuesday, 9 December 2003 00:28 (twenty years ago) link

And let's face it (re: last paragraph of Chang's rant): if Lester Bangs were alive today, Chang would be calling him an old white man.

And while Bangs might indeed have be "mentoring a young woman of color," it would only be after he got her drunk on cough syrup and . . . well, you can imagine the rest.

shookout, Tuesday, 9 December 2003 00:33 (twenty years ago) link

how much did you pay for your all-seeing crystal ball that tells us exactly how impossible situations would have turned out had certain people lived or not lived, anyway?

M Matos (M Matos), Tuesday, 9 December 2003 00:51 (twenty years ago) link

relax, man, it's just a joke, it's not meant to be taken literally...it's just extending a line of thought introduced by the essay.

shookout, Tuesday, 9 December 2003 01:01 (twenty years ago) link

one year passes...
I really hope Jeff Chang reviews this book:

Triksta
Life and Death and New Orleans Rap
Written by Nik Cohn
Music - Rap Hardcover
November 2005 $22.95 1-4000-4245-3

desc
In Triksta, a masterful observer of movements that emerge from dark corners to become worldwide phenomena–early rock ’n’ roll and “Saturday Night Fever,” to name but two –gives us a mesmerizing account of a city, its music, and a way of life that often embraces death.

Nik Cohn’s love of hip-hop goes back to its beginnings, and his love of New Orleans even further, to when he passed through on tour with The Who and discovered a place whose magic has never failed to seize him. As a white, foreign-born writer without money or bling, he would seem the least likely rap impresario imaginable, yet he plunges into this violent and poverty-ravaged world as a would-be producer. His passionate involvement with the music and the people who make it leads him through a New Orleans–wards, clubs, and projects–hidden from anyone not born to it: a journey into the heart of the hip-hop dream. En route, he immerses us in lives we scarcely think about, and then only with ignorance and fear, lives at once desperate, heroic, and endlessly enterprising as these men and women driven by talent and passion struggle to survive. Cohn captures a music that’s hugely popular but rarely understood, and with transcendent humanity he reveals this beloved city in all its tragic beauty.

__###REPLACE###.name.verbose__
Nik Cohn is the author of six previous books, as well as two collaborations with the artist Guy Peellaert. He was born in London, raised in Northern Ireland, and now lives on Shelter Island, New York.

borzai, Wednesday, 2 November 2005 14:03 (eighteen years ago) link

what right does cohn have to say nigga or even write it unless its come from a black persons mouth? the way he uses it just sounds wrong anyway

yawn, Wednesday, 2 November 2005 14:28 (eighteen years ago) link

funnily enough, i just read a long piece about nik cohn and this book and his life in new orleans.

anyway, he comes across as extremely conscious of and humble about his position (old english white guy) vs his subjects (young black rappers). (ps, for the shelter island hataz, he has spent time living in new orleans and has an apartment there. next to a crack house, for extra authenticity).

also, he was even more ahead of his time than i had previously realized--not only invented saturday night fever, but also has a claim on ziggy stardust and pinball wizard too.

plus, he really should be rehabilitated as the OG Popist.

so, step off bitches.

bugged out, Wednesday, 2 November 2005 17:51 (eighteen years ago) link


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