Mizoguchi >>> Kurosawa
― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Wednesday, 6 August 2008 17:27 (fifteen years ago) link
Mizoguchi has the same "problem" as Buñuel does in this format: too many masterpieces.
― Eric H., Wednesday, 6 August 2008 17:27 (fifteen years ago) link
I dont even have much use for Kurosawa or Fellini apart from Seven Samurai and 8 1/2. it's kind of strange really.
― ryan, Wednesday, 6 August 2008 17:28 (fifteen years ago) link
lol shit i think a friend of mine works with anurag, or has. terrible list.
― omar little, Wednesday, 6 August 2008 17:28 (fifteen years ago) link
Yeah, it's amazing how Buñuel's the only Old Master who didn't once place a film.
― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Wednesday, 6 August 2008 17:29 (fifteen years ago) link
I mean, really, is it possible to single one out? If it weren't for Vertigo's gothic gravitas, Hitchcock would almost assuredly be in the same position.
― Eric H., Wednesday, 6 August 2008 17:31 (fifteen years ago) link
1972, Wild Strawberries
― I know, right?, Wednesday, 6 August 2008 17:31 (fifteen years ago) link
so what you will about boring canons, a lot of these movies are just fucking miracles to me.
― ryan, Wednesday, 6 August 2008 17:32 (fifteen years ago) link
wtf Searchers, explain yourself!
-- I know, right?, Wednesday, August 6, 2008 4:58 PM (32 minutes ago)
― I know, right?, Wednesday, 6 August 2008 17:32 (fifteen years ago) link
I think one problem with Mizoguchi is that he isn't nearly as "Western" as Kurosawa; his late career movies especially lack clear-cut moralities and are more ambivalent and open-ended than most Western movies of the era. This isn't to say that Kurosawa is any worse than Mizoguchi, though (I love them both), just that Mizoguchi probably isn't as easy to digest in the West.
― Tuomas, Wednesday, 6 August 2008 17:33 (fifteen years ago) link
David Thomson's beef with Kurosawa rests on this premise.
― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Wednesday, 6 August 2008 17:35 (fifteen years ago) link
Anurag's list has a certain integrity until Jerry Maguire shows up!
― ryan, Wednesday, 6 August 2008 17:35 (fifteen years ago) link
In retrospect, I should've also included, as a poll option, Paul Schrader, if only as a joke. But that article ended up being the furor that never happened, in the end.
― Eric H., Wednesday, 6 August 2008 17:36 (fifteen years ago) link
But you look at the lists from "non-Western" critics and you're more likely to see, if anything, an even more pronounced taste for Western movie values.
― Eric H., Wednesday, 6 August 2008 17:37 (fifteen years ago) link
when will films from Iran/China/HK/Taiwan show up on S&S lists? Never, that's when.
― Dr Morbius, Wednesday, 6 August 2008 17:38 (fifteen years ago) link
Schrader reminds me: no Bresson on any of these lists.
(the mizoguchi/ozu vs kurosawa thing always struck me as a bit of a western "orientalist" bias)
― ryan, Wednesday, 6 August 2008 17:39 (fifteen years ago) link
xps are directed at you btw Soto
― I know, right?, Wednesday, 6 August 2008 17:39 (fifteen years ago) link
C'mon – Kiarostami will show up soon.
(xxpost)
― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Wednesday, 6 August 2008 17:39 (fifteen years ago) link
In the category of "small victories," Close-Up managed something like four votes.
― Eric H., Wednesday, 6 August 2008 17:40 (fifteen years ago) link
I bet something like Flowers of Shanghai will show up next time. maybe not top ten though.
― ryan, Wednesday, 6 August 2008 17:40 (fifteen years ago) link
Wong Kar Wai is in the process of dismantling any chance he once had of showing up on these lists isn't he.
― I know, right?, Wednesday, 6 August 2008 18:04 (fifteen years ago) link
Flowers of Shanghai's best chance was surely in '02, right? It had all the "greatest masterwork of the 1990s" hype still running fairly hot at that point. I rarely see much chatter about it these days.
― Eric H., Wednesday, 6 August 2008 21:08 (fifteen years ago) link
yeah, you're probably right.
I like to check on the Senses of Cinema list once in a while, though I wish they made it longer than 10.
1. Vertigo(Alfred Hitchcock, 1958) 2. Citizen Kane(Orson Welles, 1941) 3. 2001: A Space Odyssey(Stanley Kubrick, 1968) 4. 8½(Federico Fellini, 1963) 5. La Règle du jeu(Jean Renoir, 1939) 6. Tokyo Story(Yasujiro Ozu, 1953) 7. Sunrise(F. W. Murnau, 1927) 8. Au Hasard, Balthazar(Robert Bresson, 1966) 9. Taxi Driver(Martin Scorsese, 1976) 10. La Passion de Jeanne D'Arc(Carl Dreyer, 1928
― ryan, Wednesday, 6 August 2008 21:12 (fifteen years ago) link
i am a bigger french new wave fan than most, but i am totally stunned by the lack of any godard or 400 blows, or resnais.
I am going with 72, for the silents and the inclusion of Persona. (even though i still would rather not have any fellini on a top ten list)
― t0dd swiss, Wednesday, 6 August 2008 21:21 (fifteen years ago) link
I really have to hope that Bresson will escape the Buñuel/Mizoguchi trap, and that enough consensus will settle on Balthazar, but my guess is not ... too many others will go for Pickpocket or A Man Escaped instead.
― Eric H., Wednesday, 6 August 2008 21:33 (fifteen years ago) link
The only thing keeping me from wholly endorsing 1962 and that then-two-years-old movie landing at #2 is the presence of two Eisensteins (even if one, Ivan, is by far my favorite of his).
― Eric H., Wednesday, 6 August 2008 21:34 (fifteen years ago) link
Apparently in 1962 nobody laughed at the movies.
― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Wednesday, 6 August 2008 21:35 (fifteen years ago) link
I'm sort of surprised Resnais didn't managed to crack the top 10 in '62, then.
― Eric H., Wednesday, 6 August 2008 21:44 (fifteen years ago) link
L'avventura seems to be the only movie to crack the top ten relatively soon after it's release.
― ryan, Wednesday, 6 August 2008 21:55 (fifteen years ago) link
'92, bcz it has Vigo, Ray & Dreyer on it, and no Coppola, 8-1/2 or Singin'.
otm plus no avventurzzzzzzzzz....
― tipsy mothra, Wednesday, 6 August 2008 21:59 (fifteen years ago) link
i love L'avventura but i'd rank The Passenger over it.
― ryan, Wednesday, 6 August 2008 22:02 (fifteen years ago) link
I think I am voting '92 too for no Felini although I wish Singing in the Rain was.
― Alex in SF, Wednesday, 6 August 2008 22:13 (fifteen years ago) link
I'm as upset as anyone that Ugetsu has been phased out of the top 10 out of the past few decades since it is, to my tastes, far greater than anything Kurosawa has done; perhaps my favorite film as of now. Yet aside from that "Western" / non-Western thing, I read an interesting article somewhere describing Mizoguchi's works & aesthetic as being more classically feminine or concerned with the feminine, as opposed to the obsession-with-the-masculine that Kurosawa exhibited, that has resonated with (mostly male) film critics.
I wonder how different these lists would be if you *weren't* able to see your peers' rankings, and all voting would remain unpublished & anonymous....
Here is the "combined list" of the critics AND directors' rankings, the Top 50 - it is really cool to check out the entire shebang here, since I find it to be the most important/comprehensive list of world cinema on the net so far that doesn't seem all arbitrary (like that 1001 Films website thing) - and yes, I'd have to like to join this let's-watch club (but they started it in 2002, and as you can see from the last page of the board, they're still goin' at it!)
http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htf/movies-theatrical/107091-sight-sound-2002-greatest-films-club.html
Rank Title Director Year
1 Citizen Kane Welles 1941 2 Vertigo Hitchcock 1958 3 Rules of the Game Renoir 1939 4 8 ½ Fellini 1963 5 2001: A Space Odyssey Kubrick 1968 6 Tokyo Story Ozu 1953 7 Godfather Part II, The Coppola 1974 8 Seven Samurai Kurosawa 1954 9 Rashomon Kurosawa 1950 10 Battleship Potemkin Eisenstein 1925 10 Singin' in the Rain Donen/Kelly 1952 12 Sunrise Murnau 1927 13 Searchers, The Ford 1956 14 Lawrence of Arabia Lean 1962 15 Godfather, The Coppola 1972 16 Bicycle Thieves, The De Sica 1948 16 Dolce Vita, La Fellini 1960 16 Passion of Joan of Arc, The Dreyer 1928 19 Avventura, L' Antonioni 1960 19 Breathless (A Bout de souffle) Godard 1960 19 Touch of Evil Welles 1958 22 Dr. Strangelove Kubrick 1964 22 Jules and Jim Truffaut 1962 22 Raging Bull Scorsese 1980 25 Atalante, L' Vigo 1934 25 Psycho Hitchcock 1960 25 Sunset Blvd. Wilder 1950 28 Fanny and Alexander Bergman 1982 28 General, The Keaton/Bruckman 1927 28 Godfather & Godfather Part II, The Coppola 1974 28 Mirror, The Tarkovsky 1975 28 Some Like it Hot Wilder 1959 33 Andrei Roublev Tarkovsky 1969 33 City Lights Chaplin 1931 33 Children of Paradise (Enfants du Paradis) Carne 1945 33 Grand Illusion Renoir 1937 37 Apartment, The Wilder 1960 37 Apocalypse Now Coppola 1979 37 Au hasard Balthazar Bresson 1966 37 Pather Panchali Ray, Satyajit 1955 37 Seventh Seal, The Bergman 1955 37 Taxi Driver Scorsese 1976 43 Casablanca Curtiz 1942 43 Chinatown Polanski 1974 43 Contempt (Le Mepris) Godard 1963 43 Third Man, The Reed 1949 43 Ugetsu Monogatari Mizoguchi 1953 48 Ivan the Terrible Eisenstein 1947 48 Metropolis Lang 1927 50 400 Blows, The Truffaut 1959 50 Intolerance Griffith 1916 50 M Lang 1931 50 Ordet Dreyer 1955 50 Wild Strawberries Bergman 1957
Click on the link for the rest. The rankings all get tied at 226 and go no further, which simply means that a film got at least two mentions on this combined crit/director list. If a film isn't on this, it just isn't regarded yet - since there are many eyebrow raising selections on it
― Vichitravirya_XI, Wednesday, 6 August 2008 22:17 (fifteen years ago) link
'52, cuz I like le million
― contenderizer, Wednesday, 6 August 2008 22:19 (fifteen years ago) link
then again, it's the only one without CK, so I dunno
― contenderizer, Wednesday, 6 August 2008 22:20 (fifteen years ago) link
wait, I change, '72's got persona, ambersons, the general
― contenderizer, Wednesday, 6 August 2008 22:23 (fifteen years ago) link
crub
There are some movies I don't much like on that Top 50 list (as opposed to movies I just find kind of boring which are all over the place.)
― Alex in SF, Wednesday, 6 August 2008 22:26 (fifteen years ago) link
I'm as upset as anyone that Ugetsu has been phased out of the top 10 out of the past few decades since it is, to my tastes, far greater than anything Kurosawa has done
i love a lot of kurosawa but i might go along with that.
thing that bothers me most about the '92 list is 2001, which i like fine (just watched it on an HD channel last month, it looked great) but no way as top 10 material. (and it crept up farther in '02. i sort of doubt that will be sustained next time around.)
― tipsy mothra, Wednesday, 6 August 2008 22:27 (fifteen years ago) link
eyes wide shut, barry lyndon > 2001
seven samurai > mizoguchi > rest of kurosawa
― ryan, Wednesday, 6 August 2008 22:37 (fifteen years ago) link
No, I see 2001 sustaining its high rankings for the long haul now. Aside from being about the only acceptable excursion into "genre" here (along with Searchers), it's also in the last few decades come to stand in for the 1960s en toto.
― Eric H., Wednesday, 6 August 2008 22:43 (fifteen years ago) link
i wonder what the first post-1980 film to make one of these top 10s will be. and when.
― tipsy mothra, Wednesday, 6 August 2008 22:45 (fifteen years ago) link
As a side note ...
― Eric H., Wednesday, 6 August 2008 22:50 (fifteen years ago) link
Barry Lyndon holds up so much better than 2001 as K's masterpiece; no contest. How 2001 can't be seen as a somewhat dated, if mesmerizing, relic has always been beyond me...
Here is the bottom of hat list - all the movies that got at least two mentions to be tied at 226. More interesting, but parts are just as canonical rather than anti-canonical...
And "Topsy Turvy" ? Really ? From 1999, I believe that's the most recent film. I guess I need to watch it. I still haven't seen that Angelopoulos film from the year before either..
226 1900 Berolucci 1976 226 Accattone Pasolini 1961 226 African Queen, The Huston 1951 226 Age of Innocence Scorsese 1993 226 All that Heaven Allows Sirk 1956 226 And Life Goes On Kiarostami 1991 226 Angel Lubitsch 1937 226 Annie Hall Allen 1997 226 Apu Trilogy, The Ray, Satyajit 1959 226 Atanarjuat Kunuk 2001 226 Autumn Afternoon, An Ozu 1964 226 Baby Doll Kazan 1956 226 Bigger Than Life Ray, Nicholas 1956 226 Birth of a Nation, The Griffith 1915 226 Bob le flambeur Melville 1955 226 Bride of Frankenstein Whale 1935 226 Bringing up Baby Hawks 1938 226 Burnt by the Sun Mikhalkov 1994 226 Dames du Bois de Boulogne, Les Bresson 1945 226 Day of Wrath Dreyer 1943 226 Death in Venice Visconti 1971 226 Demoiselles de Rochefort, Les Demy/Varda 1967 226 Devils, The Russell 1971 226 Don't Look Back Pennebaker 1967 226 Double Life of Veronique, The Kieslowski 1993 226 Naked Childhood Pialat 1970 226 Eternity and a Day Angelopoulos 1998 226 Europa Von Trier 1991 226 F for Fake Welles 1976 226 Phantom of Liberty Bunuel 1974 226 Farewell My Concubine Chen 1993 226 Fargo Coens 1996 226 Faster Pussycat! Kill! Kill! Meyer 1985 226 Woman Next Door, The Truffaut 1981 226 Fires Were Started Jennings 1943 226 Germany Year Zero Rossellini 1947 226 Godfather Trilogy, The Coppola 1992 226 Good, the Bad, and the Ugly, The Leone 1967 226 Great Expectations Lean 1947 226 Hate Kassovitz 1995 226 Hidden Fortress, The Kurosawa 1958 226 High and Low Kurosawa 1963 226 Hiroshima mon Amour Resnais 1959 226 Hotel Terminous: Klaus Barbie, His Life and Times Ophuls, Marcel 1988 226 I vitelloni Fellini 1953 226 Red Desert, The Antonioni 1964 226 Lacombe Lucien Malle 1974 226 Lady Vanishes, The Hitchcock 1938 226 Lancelot of the Lake Bresson 1974 226 Last Laugh, The Murnau 1924 226 Last Picture Show, The Bogdanovich 1971 226 Limelight Chaplin 1952 226 Lola Demy 1961 226 Love Me Tonight Mamoulian 1932 226 Ludwig Visconti 1972 226 Make Way for Tomorrow McCarey 1937 226 Maltese Falcon, The Huston 1941 226 Masculin Feminin Godard 1986 226 Mean Streets Scorsese 1973 226 Meghe dhaka tara Ghatik 1960 226 Miracle in Milan De Sica 1951 226 Moment of Innocence, A Makhmalbaf 1996 226 My Neighbor Totoro Miyazaki 1988 226 Nanook of the North Flaherty 1922 226 Navigator, The Keaton 1924 226 Network Lumet 1976 226 Nights of Cabiria Fellini 1957 226 October Eisenstein 1927 226 Odd Man Out Reed 1947 226 Oedipus Rex Pasolini 1967 226 Orlando Potter 1992 226 Orphee Cocteau 1949 226 Pakeezah Amrohi 1975 226 Pandora's Box Pabst 1929 226 Day in the Country, A Renoir 1936 226 Passenger, The Antonioni 1975 226 Performance Roeg 1970 226 Puppetmaster Hou 1993 226 Red Shoes, The Powell/Pressburger 1948 226 Region Centrale, La Snow 1971 226 Remains of the Day, The Ivory 1993 226 Riff-Raff Loach 1990 226 Rosemary's Baby Polanski 1968 226 Round-Up, The Jancso 1965 226 Rue Cases-Negres, La Palcy 1983 226 Sacrifice, The Tarkovsky 1986 226 Salvatore Giuliano Rosi 1961 226 Scarlett Empress, The Von Sternberg 1934 226 Schindler's List Spielberg 1993 226 Shadows Cassavetes 1959 226 Shane Stevens 1953 226 She Wore a Yellow Ribbon Ford 1949 226 Shining, The Kubrick 1980 226 Short Cuts Altman 1993 226 Silences du palais, Les Tlati 1994 226 Steamboat Bill, Jr. Keaton/Reisner 1928 226 Still Life Saless 1974 226 Strangers on a Train Hitchcock 1951 226 Stray Dog Kurosawa 1949 226 Strike Eisenstein 1925 226 Thief of Bagdad, The Berger/Powell 1940 226 Thing from Another World, The Hawks/Nyby 1951 226 Three Colours Blue Kieslowski 1991 226 Time of Gypsies Kusterica 1988 226 Tingler, The Castle 1959 226 Shoot the Piano Player Truffaut 1960 226 To Be or Not ot Be Lubitsch 1942 226 To Sleep with Anger Burnett 1990 226 Topsy-Turvy Leigh 1999 226 Touch of Zen, A Hu 1969 226 Underground Kusterica 1995 226 Vampires, Les Feuillade 1915 226 Vampyr Dreyer 1932 226 Vidas Secas Dos Santos 1963 226 Weekend Godard 1967 226 Where is My Friend's House? Kiarostami 1987 226 White Heat Walsh 1949 226 Wind, The Sjostrom 1928 226 Woman under the Influence, A Cassavetes 1974 226 Xala Sembene 1975
― Vichitravirya_XI, Wednesday, 6 August 2008 23:06 (fifteen years ago) link
"Xala" literally put me to sleep, but the ending was memorable in its sickening way. I'd see it again as a curiosity
― Vichitravirya_XI, Wednesday, 6 August 2008 23:08 (fifteen years ago) link
it's also in the last few decades come to stand in for the 1960s en toto
because of all the sex, drugs and rock & roll?
― gabbneb, Wednesday, 6 August 2008 23:13 (fifteen years ago) link
"i wonder what the first post-1980 film to make one of these top 10s will be. and when."
Judging by the top 50 thing it'll be Fanny and Alexander.
― Alex in SF, Wednesday, 6 August 2008 23:18 (fifteen years ago) link
And "Topsy Turvy" ? Really ?
i love that movie so much.
― tipsy mothra, Wednesday, 6 August 2008 23:23 (fifteen years ago) link
It's a good movie. Leigh's best?
― Alex in SF, Wednesday, 6 August 2008 23:25 (fifteen years ago) link
i seem to remember Topsy Turvy got one vote at number 1 on someone's list?
― jed_, Wednesday, 6 August 2008 23:27 (fifteen years ago) link
I think the right year won.
― Alex in SF, Friday, 29 August 2008 23:05 (fifteen years ago) link
off track but the s and sound get smart review was pretty funny
― I know, right?, Friday, 29 August 2008 23:07 (fifteen years ago) link
I saw it, In the cinema. like, paid money
booooooooooooo
― Dr Morbius, Saturday, 30 August 2008 17:48 (fifteen years ago) link
jeez, sorry to offend your sensibilities morbs
― I know, right?, Saturday, 30 August 2008 17:51 (fifteen years ago) link
i can't remember whether i voted in this thread but it's weird to look at the 1952 list and see how many of those selections basically disappeared from consideration by the next list -- no more chaplin, griffith, carne, flaherty, clair, even von stroheim. like a glimpse into a lost world.
it's also fascinating how FAST l'avventura jumped onto the 1962 list. i can't imagine any movie making it onto the list at all, let alone at no. 2, within two years of its release nowadays.
― (The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Wednesday, 21 March 2012 00:21 (twelve years ago) link
surely the answer is 1992
― flesh, the devil, and a wolf (wolf) (amateurist), Wednesday, 21 March 2012 10:01 (twelve years ago) link
i can't imagine any movie making it onto the list at all, let alone at no. 2, within two years
make it four and prepare to be knocked for a loop by The Dark Knight
― Literal Facepalms (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 21 March 2012 14:42 (twelve years ago) link
When I look at the six lists together (especially the last five), it's like looking at one of those 3D pictures where things come into focus gradually, if at all--they all blur together for me.
The '72 list had a huge effect on me: saw it in the Book of Lists in the late '70s, and it was so mysterious to me, all these films like Persona and L'Avventura that I'd never heard of--pre-internet, pre-video, pre-everything if you lived in a small town--I know it played a part in my decision to enroll in film at university, rather than math. One of the dumbest decisions of my life. Thanks Sight & Sound!
― clemenza, Wednesday, 21 March 2012 14:43 (twelve years ago) link
cinephilia is like catholicism; right now I'm lapsed, but I'm never not going to be a cinephile.
Haha. Um.
― Eric H., Wednesday, 21 March 2012 15:13 (twelve years ago) link
The durability of Potemkin amazes me. Even allowing for the fact that it's not my kind of film, it just doesn't strike me as something that would be on every list across six decades (and never lower than seventh).
― clemenza, Wednesday, 21 March 2012 15:24 (twelve years ago) link
Roger Ebert has picked just one new film to replace one old one on his 2002 Top 10 list http://blogs.suntimes.com/ebert/2012/04/the_greatest_films_of_all_time.html
― piscesx, Monday, 30 April 2012 12:24 (eleven years ago) link
A movie that was only his 3rd best movie of his year-end list for 2011.
― jungleous butterflies strange birds (Eric H.), Monday, 30 April 2012 12:26 (eleven years ago) link
I like that he almost went for Synecdoche, New York.
― And I have been called "The Appetite" (DL), Monday, 30 April 2012 12:41 (eleven years ago) link
On another blog, he floated the horrifying possibility that JUNO was on the shortlist for that slot.
― jungleous butterflies strange birds (Eric H.), Monday, 30 April 2012 12:56 (eleven years ago) link