Star Trek: Classic or Dud?

Oh and that picture of Spock and Kirk is something else.

Putting this here in case someone hasn't seen it:

TNG Season 8
@TNG_S8
Plots from the unaired 8th season of Star Trek: The Next Generation
http://twitter.com/#!/TNG_S8

Always found the sense of camaraderie in TOS rather touching. Never got madly into anything after. I'll happily watch an episode of Next Gen, but I don't love it. Sorry to get snobby, but without the original iconic characters I'd rather read a good Space Opera novel.

― I wish to incorporate disco into my small business (chap), Monday, June 18, 2012 8:19 PM (1 hour ago

back in the '70s david gerrold (who wrote the original 'tribbles' episode wrote something about all the things wrong -- logically, dramatically, and otherwise -- with the original series. all the way from things like 'too many episodes that end with fistfights' to 'the captain shouldn't be beaming down with the away team.' they 'fixed' all those things in TNG, which explains all those episodes where basically nothing happens and picard solves everything in the last 30 seconds by glaring indignantly at a screen.

Sometimes I don't even think we are watching the same series.

picard solves everything in the last 30 seconds by glaring indignantly at a screen.

Yes, this is awesome.

It's how I solve most of MY life's problems.

that foto is shit hot

According to that Dave Gerrold book, every episode is awful except the one that he wrote

It's how I solve most of MY life's problems.

Have Picard glare indignantly at them? Because I would pay for that problem solving service.

Replace "David Gerrold" with "Harlan Ellison," still true!

My first venture onto this thread: to answer the c/d as best I can. This series has given great pleasure to more people than Pamplamoose ever will. Somehow, this does not answer the question adequately. Perhaps, if I compared it to I Dream of Jeannie things would become clearer?

The awesomeness of Gene Rodenberry making TOS exist on 60's tv for so long cancels out any qualms I have wrt to Kirk's boneriffic explorations of other lifeforms. It's the frakking bomb, and I still get a lot of joy out of revisiting old episodes. And the remastered ones they were running on TBS looked fkning cool as hell.

Seems appropriate to post this here

http://io9.com/5919079/watch-an-animated-reinterpretation-of-the-orignal-star-trek-intro

TNG is as adorable with its (stilted, talky) 90s idealism as TOS is with its (imperialistic, sexist) 60s idealism; i love watching both of them as the most optimistic dreams their respective cultures could muster. but when it comes down to it, if i'm watching a tv show about spaceships i'd rather have golden-age-sf Concepts featuring a fixed set of lovable cardboard adventurers than tv writers' character development. personal choice obv.

anyway one of my favorite kirk-being-o_O moments is in the "grups" episode where he is openly flirting with a 12-year-old and yeoman rand (i think it's yeoman rand?) says something about what's he doing with that girl and spock says "THAT 'GIRL' IS OVER THREE HUNDRED YEARS OLDER THAN YOU, YEOMAN. THINK ABOUT IT."

(i know TNG starts in 87 but it feels so 90s. i started in 1987 too and i feel pretty 90s.)

Kirk is just the man.

difficult listening hour otm, I like TNG in theory, but definitely its 90's datedness is less appealing than the 60's datedness of TOS.

Kinda think 60's have passed through so many retro phases and re-appropriations that more or less anything genuinely of that time just has a classic grace to it.

I read one Robert Anton Wilson book where he went on about how cool Spock was, that he was a modern version of the god Pan, subversively revealing occult secrets through groovy sci-fi TV trappings. Or something.

haha that's cool

how cool is the episode where the greek gods turn out to be aliens. and they've all committed suicide from lack of worship. just let themselves break apart and drift away on the wind. how cool is that.

not that i want for a second to diminish the awesomeness of "resistance is futile... number one." i could watch that right now.

TOS is almost unwatchable to me.

:(

how come, Jeff?

from Cosmic Trigger: p. 27

The greenish-skinned, pointy-eared man I saw in 1963 has appeared in the folklore of many cultures who do not even use peyote. He has been seen most frequently, in recent years, as a humanoid extraterrestrial in various flying saucer reports by alleged Contactees. And, in the late 1960s, he began to appear regularly on TV, known as "Mr. Spock" on the Star Trek show, and has remained on the tube ever since, despite frequent network attempts to cancel the show and get rid of him. The fans always insist on bringing him back, and now in 1977, as I write, "Mr. Spock" is scheduled to appear either in the first Star Trek movie or a revival of the series on TV. He is an image, or as Jung would say, an " a r c h e t y p e " that cannot be erased from the human mind.

By coincidence, in his guise as Spock, this pointy-eared godling has given us a slogan that has become widely used in correspondence among Immortalists-scientists dedicated to the search for longevity and eventual physical immortality. The slogan is, of course, "Live long and prosper." We have seen that slogan on letters from the Cryonics Society of Michigan, the Bay Area Cryonics Society, the Prometheus Society and other ImmortaUst groups. This "coincidence" will appear, possibly, to be more than a coincidence when we have examined further data . . .

under two illustrations:

Mescalito takes many forms in many myth-systems. Here he is as sketched from descriptions by American Indian shamans, as Peter Pan in a commercial advertisement, and as Mr. Spock on Star Trek. He is one of the most widely-reported denizens of Chapel Perilous and is known in dozens of shamanic traditions.

has appeared in the folklore of many cultures who do not even use peyote.

gonna start using this one

wow, really need to pick that book up

how come, Jeff?

I tried to give it a chance and I do like the occasional episode (The Galileo Seven). I don't mind the production values, I suppose that is part of the charm. Obviously as Carl mentions, the sexism is a big part of it and how it is often explained away by saying it was a sign of the times, 60s, free love expression, etc etc. It was really after The Enemy Within that it because so off-putting, specifically the scene at the end with Spock and Yeoman Rand. From Memory Alpha:

Actress Grace Lee Whitney was very unhappy about the last scene of this episode, in which Spock asks Yeoman Rand, if "The imposter had some very interesting qualities, wouldn't you say, Yeoman?". In her autobiography, she wrote: "I can't imagine any more cruel and insensitive comment a man (or Vulcan) could make to a woman who has just been through a sexual assault! But then, some men really do think that women want to be raped. So the writer of the script (ostensibly Richard Matheson - although the line could have been added by Gene Roddenberry or an assistant scribe) gives us a leering Mr. Spock who suggests that Yeoman Rand enjoyed being raped and found the evil Kirk attractive!" (The Longest Trek: My Tour of the Galaxy, p. 95)

Certainly not the only occurrence. You find this stuff peppered throughout the episodes and it just gets tiresome. It's distracting.

Beyond that, I just find the pacing awful. Each episode drags, I check out much time is left and only 10 minutes has passed. It's boring. A lot of the stories could be interesting, but they are just killed by how they are drawn out. Maybe it will get better. I've seen many episodes, but we are only recently going through and doing a complete viewing of the seasons.

Which series was 'The Negron Complex' in?

it's more an expression of thoughtless kennedyesque privilege than of free love. although i guess the miniskirts are the latter. re that dumb spock line (a particular shame in light of what i remember as a genuinely and deliberately creepy assault scene, where instead of Evil Kirk being an out-of-nowhere cackling villain he's just an undiluted expression of impulses we already know to be present in kirk, like his weakness for hitting on his subordinates) i guess all i'd say is that spock is not the most sensitive guy in general. (THINK ABOUT IT.) but then, granted, nor is anyone else. except bones. i bet bones would never say something like that.

there are a bunch of really boring episodes to me (although not really any more than in TNG) -- the one i remember really being interminable is "the alternative factor", where a guy they got at the last minute to replace john barrymore stops what seems like every forty-five seconds to clutch his head and listen to dramatic music while the colors go negative and the camera tilts back and forth in the single worst special effect in the entire series (parallel universes are intersecting, or something). it's particularly maddening if you're forcing yourself to watch every episode cuz the one right after it is "city on the edge of forever", which the fourth or fifth time the guy clutches his head seems impossibly far away.

all Star Trek except TOS is of no interest to me. I watched about 3 eps of TNG and never even bothered with an entire episode of the others. The Picard-Kirk movie was pretty weak, particularly when Shatner wasn't around.

yes, the '60s, when men were men and space was Vietnam. Make allowances, and deal.

(I do remember that "interesting qualities" line cited by Grace Lee Whitney -- when I first saw the episode I was probably ten and didn't know what the hell it meant -- and obviously it's foul, but far from unique to Star Trek.)

I don't know I've seen the entire series the whole way through, and I don't remember the names of a lot of the episodes I've seen (such a girl), but my favorite is definitely The Menagerie two-parter.

The thing with TOS vs TNG is that the bad TOS episodes are unwatchable. The bad TNG episodes can either be watched for laughs (the one where the entire crew de-evolve) or at least are competently made and acted (Farpoint).

the worst TNG eps are really tedious and bad, and there's a lot of them.

the bad TOS episodes are unwatchable

Like "Spock's Brain"? I differ.

Spock's Brain is AWESOME! The bad TOS episodes can be watched for laughs too.

As a percentage there are fewer bad TNG eps than TOS eps. Most of TOS season 3 goes from 'I should care about this plot why exactly?' downwards.

i just watched most of TNG - it's such a great series, so thoughtful and full of ideas and resolutely humanistic

i still can't believe they got away with making picard, and not another kirk figure, the series lead. a bald shakespearean pacifist with a french name!

Menagerie is awful!!! It's a clip show!!

great idea for an actual Starfleet captain; for a TV lead, not so much

xp

it also always blows my mind how many ideas/stories they could fit into one 42-minute episode. sure there are some duds but think about how crammed a 22-episode season is, as opposed to the way shows are in the HBO era, where a storyline is stretched out over a whole season

Fwiw, DS9 is my favorite series. Followed closely by TNG. They are essentially 1a and 1b for me.

xxxp It's a clip show of an episode that never aired!

(xps) It's a pretty good clip show. For a start, there's a lot more to it than two characters sitting in a room saying "oh do you remember when X happened?".

great idea for an actual Starfleet captain; for a TV lead, not so much

xp

― Pangborn to be Wilde (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, June 19, 2012 11:34 AM (12 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

you just admitted you only watched a handful of episodes

he's a totally original character and at his best, an electrifying performer

xxpost >:( Menagerie is NOT awful. you're a clip show.

It took the clips from the boring pilot and made me watch them again. Damn you star trek.

mystified that anyone could stan for TNG as being LESS boring than TOS. feel like the former has way more instances of boring tehcnobabble where nothing happens for 40 minutes

xp

sounds like my wedding night!

xxp It took the awesome bits from the mostly boring pilot and made them watchable by putting some more awesome stuff around them.