If somebody wants to champion that approach, that's fine (if they're strong enough as a writer they'll make it work). Just don't violate your own terms, especially when you're trying to provide an example of the approach in action. Christgau says Phillips shouldn't call SY "boring," she should talk about the songs in and of themselves without addressing her emotional response to them, then he says "let me give you an example," and uses "sandbagging" which is just a tricky way to say "boring."
― Edward III (edward iii), Wednesday, 7 June 2006 14:25 (seventeen years ago) link
That's not at all what he implies! especially when he quite vigorously defends his weakness for NYC Ghosts.
― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn (Alfred Soto), Wednesday, 7 June 2006 14:30 (seventeen years ago) link
...the fact that objectivity only comes naturally in math doesn't mean it can't be approximated in art.
One technique, which I've just illustrated, is to replace response reports ("boring" and all its self-involved pals, like my "exhilarating" or Phillips's less blatant "dull") with stimulus reports.
To paraphrase, an approach to improved objectivity is through focusing on "stimulus reports" (which I take to mean descriptions of the music itself, the stimulus) as opposed to "response reports" (i.e. the reviewer's response to the stimulus). Okay, that's fine. Then:
Here's another instance: Boring or not, 1998's A Thousand Leaves unquestionably marked a turn toward the quietude, ruminative structures, and general fuzz level always implicit in their unresolved tunings and Deadhead-manquéjams—tendencies tersely deployed on 1994's Experimental Jet Set, Trash and No Star and fulsomely indulged on Washing Machine's sandbagging 20-minute "The Diamond Sea."
You can't say, "Hey, focus on the music (stimulus) instead of your judgmental response," then throw in a couple of your own judgmental responses.
― Edward III (edward iii), Wednesday, 7 June 2006 14:45 (seventeen years ago) link
― o. nate (onate), Wednesday, 7 June 2006 14:47 (seventeen years ago) link
― o. nate (onate), Wednesday, 7 June 2006 14:48 (seventeen years ago) link
I'm disappointed in his resorting to jargon (is "sandagging" like "teabagging"?). As for "fulsomely" – any word choice implies a judgment. I need to read it again, but if you're suggesting that he went up his own arse – intentionally or no – then I sorta agree.
― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn (Alfred Soto), Wednesday, 7 June 2006 14:54 (seventeen years ago) link
Stylistically, is Christgau's a more interesting approach then just calling A Thousand Leaves exhilarating? Perhaps, but don't pretend it's the path to objectivity; it's just a writing style preference.
o. nate, those are some sandbagging pants you're wearing.
― Edward III (edward iii), Wednesday, 7 June 2006 14:54 (seventeen years ago) link
adjective
Affectedly and self-servingly earnest
― Edward III (edward iii), Wednesday, 7 June 2006 14:56 (seventeen years ago) link
― Edward III (edward iii), Wednesday, 7 June 2006 15:06 (seventeen years ago) link
― o. nate (onate), Wednesday, 7 June 2006 15:10 (seventeen years ago) link
Doubly ironic that the sentence was written in a "and here's how you do it!" spirit...
― Edward III (edward iii), Wednesday, 7 June 2006 15:33 (seventeen years ago) link
This sounds right.
― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn (Alfred Soto), Wednesday, 7 June 2006 15:41 (seventeen years ago) link
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 7 June 2006 15:45 (seventeen years ago) link
― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn (Alfred Soto), Wednesday, 7 June 2006 15:51 (seventeen years ago) link
1 a : characterized by abundance : COPIOUS b : generous in amount, extent, or spirit c : being full and well developed 2 : aesthetically, morally, or generally offensive 3 : exceeding the bounds of good taste : OVERDONE 4 : excessively complimentary or flattering : EFFUSIVE usage: The senses shown above are the chief living senses of fulsome. Sense 2, which was a generalized term of disparagement in the late 17th century, is the least common of these. Fulsome became a point of dispute when sense 1, thought to be obsolete in the 19th century, began to be revived in the 20th. The dispute was exacerbated by the fact that the large dictionaries of the first half of the century missed the beginnings of the revival. Sense 1 has not only been revived but has spread in its application and continues to do so. The chief danger for the user of fulsome is ambiguity. Unless the context is made very clear, the reader or hearer cannot be sure whether such an expression as "fulsome praise" is meant in sense 1b or in sense 4. I could picture Christgau viewing a 20 minute track as evidence of some pretentious wankery. When I hear the word "sandbagging" I think of someone or something that slows down proceedings - isn't that the common business or legal use? As in weighing down, preventing the natural flow? I've never been hit with a sandbag, although I guess Daffy Duck has...Goddamn this English language of ours...
2 : aesthetically, morally, or generally offensive
3 : exceeding the bounds of good taste : OVERDONE
4 : excessively complimentary or flattering : EFFUSIVE
usage: The senses shown above are the chief living senses of fulsome. Sense 2, which was a generalized term of disparagement in the late 17th century, is the least common of these. Fulsome became a point of dispute when sense 1, thought to be obsolete in the 19th century, began to be revived in the 20th. The dispute was exacerbated by the fact that the large dictionaries of the first half of the century missed the beginnings of the revival. Sense 1 has not only been revived but has spread in its application and continues to do so. The chief danger for the user of fulsome is ambiguity. Unless the context is made very clear, the reader or hearer cannot be sure whether such an expression as "fulsome praise" is meant in sense 1b or in sense 4.
I could picture Christgau viewing a 20 minute track as evidence of some pretentious wankery.
When I hear the word "sandbagging" I think of someone or something that slows down proceedings - isn't that the common business or legal use? As in weighing down, preventing the natural flow? I've never been hit with a sandbag, although I guess Daffy Duck has...
Goddamn this English language of ours...
― Edward III (edward iii), Wednesday, 7 June 2006 15:52 (seventeen years ago) link
You really think so?
― jaymc (jaymc), Wednesday, 7 June 2006 16:03 (seventeen years ago) link
― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn (Alfred Soto), Wednesday, 7 June 2006 16:06 (seventeen years ago) link
― electro-acoustic lycanthrope (orion), Wednesday, 7 June 2006 16:09 (seventeen years ago) link
Ian, I have no idea what that means.
― jaymc (jaymc), Wednesday, 7 June 2006 16:09 (seventeen years ago) link
Here's another instance: Boring or not, 1998's A Thousand Leaves unquestionably marked a turn toward the quietude, ruminative structures, and general fuzz level always implicit in their unresolved tunings and Deadhead-manquéjams—tendencies tersely deployed on 1994's Experimental Jet Set, Trash and No Star and copiously indulged on Washing Machine's stunning 20-minute "The Diamond Sea."
Perhaps less interesting sounding, but more clear. Is Christgau advocating the avoidance of clear word choices in favor of more vague ones in order to pursue "objectivity"? Let's forget the pejorative-or-nay for a minute - is calling "The Diammond Sea" "fulsomely sandbagging" better than just flat-out calling it "exhilarating" or "stunning"?
― Edward III (edward iii), Wednesday, 7 June 2006 16:26 (seventeen years ago) link
I suppose so, but a favorite album is also ranked according to other extra-formalist concerns: time, place, autobiographical minutiae. I don't see Rather Ripped as my no. 1 album this year, even though it's a better album than SN.
― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn (Alfred Soto), Wednesday, 7 June 2006 16:30 (seventeen years ago) link
― jaymc (jaymc), Wednesday, 7 June 2006 16:37 (seventeen years ago) link
― 66666 (pds37), Wednesday, 7 June 2006 16:50 (seventeen years ago) link
― gear (gear), Thursday, 8 June 2006 00:02 (seventeen years ago) link
― Darren Skuja (Darren Skuja), Sunday, 11 June 2006 00:15 (seventeen years ago) link
― Alex in Baltimore (Alex in Baltimore), Sunday, 11 June 2006 00:37 (seventeen years ago) link
― Matthew C Perpetua (inca), Sunday, 11 June 2006 11:54 (seventeen years ago) link
― mts (theoreticalgirl), Sunday, 11 June 2006 12:48 (seventeen years ago) link
― edde (edde), Sunday, 11 June 2006 17:18 (seventeen years ago) link
― strom (strom), Sunday, 11 June 2006 17:26 (seventeen years ago) link
― Darren Skuja (Darren Skuja), Tuesday, 13 June 2006 12:10 (seventeen years ago) link
― Uri Frendimein (Uri Frendimein), Tuesday, 13 June 2006 17:38 (seventeen years ago) link
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 13 June 2006 17:39 (seventeen years ago) link
― Uri Frendimein (Uri Frendimein), Tuesday, 13 June 2006 17:42 (seventeen years ago) link
― Christopher Costello (CGC), Wednesday, 14 June 2006 02:18 (seventeen years ago) link
― Johnny Fever (johnny fever), Wednesday, 14 June 2006 03:46 (seventeen years ago) link
― Christopher Costello (CGC), Wednesday, 14 June 2006 04:03 (seventeen years ago) link
― edde (edde), Wednesday, 14 June 2006 15:11 (seventeen years ago) link
― Christopher Costello (CGC), Wednesday, 14 June 2006 15:15 (seventeen years ago) link
apparently SY played 'rather ripped' in order from start to finish at CBGB's last night!
― rajeev (rajeev), Wednesday, 14 June 2006 15:21 (seventeen years ago) link
Except Lee's songs get worse instead of better ("Rats" is easily the weakest song on RR). I think the last song of his I loved was 1998's "Hoarfrost."
― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn (Alfred Soto), Wednesday, 14 June 2006 15:23 (seventeen years ago) link
― Chris Bee (Cee Bee), Wednesday, 14 June 2006 15:32 (seventeen years ago) link
― strom (strom), Wednesday, 14 June 2006 15:44 (seventeen years ago) link
Soto done gone loco.
― Johnny Fever (johnny fever), Wednesday, 14 June 2006 16:58 (seventeen years ago) link
There are albums that sound awesome in the record store, and then sound alright at home.. which is most of SY's albums, but this is an exception. Rather Ripped sounded a bit weak when I heard the advance in the record store, but now that I'm playing it at home, alone, at high summer dusk, it sounds incredibly intimate, warm, and gentle.
It's a cool-out album.. a couple of tracks rock a little bit more than the rest, but nothing rocks more than even the more "poppy" songs on Daydream Nation, which some consider "mellow".
But, not as much as Wild Honey, it's a zone-into album as well.. not a play-at-a-party-or-in-public album. "Do You Believe In Rapture?" is really nice. "Sleepin' Around"... "Reena"... "Or" as well. Hell, pretty much the whole album. The rest is neither incredible, nor really bad... just really nice.
It's a cruise control album. Why not? :)
― aDOring NUTbians (donut), Thursday, 15 June 2006 03:10 (seventeen years ago) link
I'll rephrase this: not a play-at-a-nightclub album
― aDOring NUTbians (donut), Thursday, 15 June 2006 03:11 (seventeen years ago) link
― aDOring NUTbians (donut), Thursday, 15 June 2006 03:15 (seventeen years ago) link
― mts (theoreticalgirl), Thursday, 15 June 2006 03:40 (seventeen years ago) link
― Chris Bee (Cee Bee), Thursday, 15 June 2006 03:50 (seventeen years ago) link
― blackmail (blackmail.is.my.life), Thursday, 15 June 2006 04:05 (seventeen years ago) link