Cricket

He's bowling quick, the majority of his wickets have been Div 2 lower-order batsmen tho. Kabir Ali has been our real star man this year, he's in phenomenal form.

I'm a (casual) Worcs fan too. Ali used to be on the fringes of the England team didn't he?

He got a game in the Test side, last time SA visited. Wicket in his first over, 5 overall, but England lost the game thanks to Gary Kirsten and Monde Zondeki putting on the luckiest 100 partnership you've ever seen. Then Andrew Hall had a bit of fun and that was that tbh.

He also had a run of games in the one-day side, with varying degrees of success, and a few real highlights, until the last two games of a series against Sri Lanka, in which he was rather spectacularly demolished on a couple of very flat decks. That's the last we've seen of him in an England shirt at this stage.

Also, why is it that every other Test team is so infinitely more likeable than ours? Why did we get all the crusty, tight-lipped, dullard cocks?

You mean every team but Australia?

I like most of the Australians! Except, like, Hayden. Brett Lee is a massively awesome guy and if you can't see that then I feel sorry for you.

As Australian teams go i suppose this one has plus points - no Waughs for instance

Steve Waugh was a great spokesman for the game, a great and open theorist, and a man I would happily do drinks with.

Michael Vaughan is a sullen, secretive PR man.

I get the impression not even Australians like their team (Esteban to thread?). Vaughan is still very likeable, despite bad form w/bat. Steve Waugh came across as nice considering how tough he was in the field, unlike Boycott who has to wear his mask on at all times.

Monty takes wkts and influences games => cricketing intelligence, and all that matters.

I can see Broad being left out in the sense that sides are often unbalanced with two all rounders however in bringing Harmison and Flintoff they're undoing the work to move on from the Fletcher era that seemed to drive Pattison's selection for the last test. Selection is completely incoherent at the moment.

Monty is only much use on a turning deck, or against substandard batsmen, and he doesn't have the variation or guile to consistently trouble the best. Cricketing intelligence DOES matter. Look at Harmison. Fairweather bowler, hugely talented in the physical sense but the brains of a peanut. Vaughan has never been especially likeable IMO.

Devon Malcolm >>> Harmison

Totally disagree. I agree that Monty isn't, say, Warne or Murali but those two are one offs. He makes things happen as his record so far shows and I think he'll get better with age, too.

The intelligence talked about upthread seemed to be of a non-sports variety. Harmison problems seem to be of an iffy temperament, a lack of application...

Never liked but LOVE Vaughan really, his poor form with the bat is painful to watch.

xp = er, no. Devon now was really even more maddeningly inconsistent.

That last bit was deliberate wind-up nonsense. They're both as bad as each other, but at least Devon never lost pace, or pretended to be anything other than a scattergun, if he never gained such a decent run of returns as Harmison once did before the wind changed and he didn't know how to cope.

Vaughan the batsman = a thing of beauty when in form, sadly he's lost his eyes I reckon, and this'll be his final summer of Test cricket.

Monty does make things happen but like I say he's a bowling machine. The best batsmen will always be thinking a step ahead of him. Not that he isn't, at present, well worth his place.

Vaughan will be in the Ashes next summer, easy.

The problem with Monty is that he's not enough of a machine at times.

Is that what you want spinners to be, machines? Is that right? Go and look at the scorecard, and indeed the online highlights, of India's much-vaunted batting line-up being utterly ravaged on a flat deck by two Sri Lankan spinners. Then tell me that Ajantha Mendis and Muttiah Muralitharan are 'machines'. They're both fantastically clever, devious, unpredictable purveyors of the beautiful art, and if you think plonking it on a length at 55 mph with a bit of turn is going to make you a legend of the game like Murali, then think again. Monty needs to mix it up a lot more, but I'm not sure he has the mental capacity to do so successfully. He's gotten where he is through sheer hard work, bowling ball after ball in the nets, perfecting the machinery, and yet we don't see a doosra, we don't see variations in flight, we don't see a particularly great arm-ball (true, he gets a lot of right-handers lbw, but mostly beaten for pace if anything).

Vaughan won't be in the Ashes side if he doesn't get a couple of decent scores before then. I reckon he's got one, maybe two fifties at the most left in him for the rest of this summer and over the winter.

No need to infer all of this from a little 'deliberate wind up nonsense' - I only see highlights but I want him to do the simpler things better, maybe...spinners have time on their side, there won't be any doosras but certainly a few variations as he gets older. Completely uninterested as to whether he turns out to be a legend, which wd prob be a good thing in his case.

More robo-Monty, for sure...

>I get the impression not even Australians like their team

most of em are fine really.

Were you being sarcastic about Brett Lee though L0uis?

that guy is a coooock

I also dislike: Michael Clarke & Shane Watson.

Monty does the simple things very well. Lands it in the right "areas". Fucking yawn. Areas, areas, areas. It's all he fucking says, or does. No deceit, no guile, no beauty save the odd time he hits a spot on the pitch and fires a ripper past the shoulder of the bat. All in the areas.

Sorry, I'm biased against certain kinds of personality, I'll shut up about Monty. His "cult" irritates the tits off me, mind. WAYHAY MONTY BARMY ARMY LOOK HE FIELDED A BALL LETS GIVE HIM A BIG PATRONISING CHEER, WHAT A LEGEND, I LOVE HIS WICKET CELEBRATION, EVERY TIME, JUMPING IN THE AIR GOING WELL MENTAL, ITS WHAT ID DO LETS BE HONEST WAAAYYHAAAYYY

Nah, I think Brett Lee's ace! Can understand the Clarke dislike far more. I don't like the Aussie team as people so much since Gilly, Warne and McGrath retired. Not only did all three attain true greatness, but they were genuinely super ambassadors for the game as well.

"Areas", yes, but my impressions is that he does it 70%, not 90%...now you've mentioned it I wonder if he gets overexcited (trying to psyche out batsmen) he kind goes off the boil at times. So he needs to cut that out.

Which, basically = more robotic.

He really doesn't bowl that many trash balls. If he did he'd be a sort of low-rent Ian Salisbury, and would be out the team quicker than you could say "nought for a hundred and twenty three"

When he does slightly miss Position A, he bowls quick enough that he often gets away with it. Sadly the lack of variation in pace means that batsmen can accustomise themselves to the trajectory, and survive, barring a freak ball or an instance of bad luck.

Just to er, end this one from last night...never said he bowls 30% trash balls. He just isn't Murali, either, which is fine for me.

Christ, what do you want from Monty? He's won several test matches for England, including one this summer. He IS prone to the odd lacklustre match, but overall has been excellent since he came in. Orthodox finger spinners are always going to rely on subtleties of flight, length and spin to get wickets rather in comparison with the likes of Murali, Warne and Mendis who can produce enough freakish deliveries to do the job.

Those of us who watched the likes of Emburey and Miller toiling away ineffectually for England in the past surely appreciate what a good bowler Monty is.

Also - the one sure way for Monty to mess up his whole career would be to change his nicely grooved action in search of a 'doosra'. The only orthodox finger spinner who has had one was probably Saqlain (Murali is a wrist spinner, whichever way his stock delivery turns). I would say that Monty's arm-ball isn't used often enough and when it is, doesn't seem to have enough dip to decieve batsmen and get lbw. Maybe he should work on that, rather than a doosra.

Dr C OTM.

As they keep saying on TMS, Monty needs to vary his pace more, his bowling still shows a lack of confidence.

Oh dear oh dear oh dear.

When exactly was Michael Vaughan's last decent batting performance again?

Answering my own question, he has the sort of knock you'd expect from a number 3 about once every 6 months.

Dr. C - I don't have a problem with Monty's results, by and large; my difficulties with him are on points of spin-bowling principle, namely that he doesn't seem to think batsmen out, rather "hits the right areas" until they get themselves out. It's an attitude thing. A doosra or well-grooved arm-ball would be great, but the main thing I'd like to see would be a mastery of pace, a dominating mindset, and setting his own fields rather than letting Uncle Mike do it for him.

Although Uncle Mike won't be the top boss for long if this continues.

Cook, Strauss, Vaughan, Pietersen, Bell, Collingwood.

Who goes and why?

Vaughan and Collingwood because they're woefully out of form and they irritate the tits off me with their interview conduct.

Given that the capt is the worst performer getting rid of the others on form seems wrong.

Strauss recently redeemed, but seems to have stuttered again.

Cook, scores 40-50 a lot is "one for the future" but doesn't seem to be good enough yet, do we chuck him out and get someone new to do it all again?

KP, is a genius but needs to get in to show it, very likely to get out early on.

Bell, scored 199 on a good pitch which according to the press cemented his international credentials but I still have doubts.

Collingwood, cant cope in tests, but is one day captain so should be able to.

SA are showing they are incredibly strong in both batting and bowling, them against Australia will be very interesting.

Cook and Bell are the two men I'd trust the most at the moment. Hopefully we won't see too many more SA celebrations this afternoon.

cook gone :(

As seen on TMS:

"As a Yorkshire fan I am backing Vaughan to remain England captain - purely because I don't want him back in the Tykes' batting line up."

Pretty gruesome stuff at the moment by the sound of it.

Collingwood playing like a man who knows his place is under intense scrutiny.

Hahahahahahaha!!!!!!!! Beautiful timing. GET THIS MAN AWAY FROM OUR TEAM

Still to score 100 1st class runs this season, apparently.

10 first class innings so far this year, 96 runs between them. Utter rubbish. xposted

Broad would have scored more than that, then taken a few wickets.

Sidebottom out too. Freddie may as well throw the bat now. Dismal day for England.

lol completely pathetic

I want to cry.

"Those of us who watched the likes of Emburey and Miller toiling away ineffectually for England in the past surely appreciate what a good bowler Monty is."

See, you're right, I wonder if we are over-appreciating Monty bcz Eng hasn't had a decent spinner since who the fuck knows when...I don't think I had ever seen one since Monty came on the scene (Tufnell def wasn't it). Anyway, totally otm. The 'doosra' stuff is v funny now.

Eng's batting is straight out of a horror novel at the moment.

Also, who is to blame for this match starting on Wednesday -- can we actually give up on the one day game altogether and space out test matches and get them starting on Thursday.

Louis pulling out the stops on this thread: I Like Geoffrey Boycott; Monty Is Stupid and Shit etc. Tuffers was a good bowler, couldn't do anything else mind you.

Also, fuck a doosra

Monty isn't shit per se, he just doesn't appeal to me on an aesthetic or intellectual level, and I doubt his bowling has much penetration against the very best. Doosra or no doosra. That was just an example. Now you mention it, incidentally, Tuffers was jusy slightly more useful in the other two departments than Monty is.

No no, however shit Monty is at batting and fielding there is no way he is as bad as Tufnell!

Thing about Tufnell is he actually had batting talent, opened the innings at school, just didn't have the bottle against quick bowling. His batting against spin was often pretty classy, but he rarely had a chance to show this. :D

"lend us a brain Tufnell, I'm building an idiot!" = best sledge ever!