Occupy Wall Street 3: Now What?

obviously the stuff now happening in the chicago w/ the supposed molotov cocktails is equally fishy, if that's a strong enough word. which is isn't.

― flesh, the devil, and a wolf (wolf) (amateurist), Tuesday, May 22, 2012 4:22 AM (17 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

yeah, same entrapment techniques. "green is the new red" is a pretty great (if now apparently dated) book on the utilization of this stuff against the militant greens in the late 90s/early aughts.

btw i support the black bloc and the vast majority of their ("their", like they're a singular entity...) actions aren't about fucking with police or escalating conflicts—i think there was some discussion about this upthread. wholesale condemnation of them is buying into stereotypes that are promoted by the police and media

my eyes roll out of my head whenever someone (like my mom) says the phrase "violent anarchists"

re: cleveland 3 & nato5 this ran today in truthout

http://truth-out.org/news/item/9286-entrapment-of-cleveland-5-and-nato-3-is-nothing-new

btw i support the black bloc and the vast majority of their ("their", like they're a singular entity...) actions aren't about fucking with police or escalating conflicts—i think there was some discussion about this upthread. wholesale condemnation of them is buying into stereotypes that are promoted by the police and media

― 1staethyr, Tuesday, May 22, 2012 4:42 AM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

thank you x 1 million

i have friends who're happy democrats excited to vote against romney in november, and they were tweeting their appreciation for the black bloc's defense throughout this weekend. bloc'ers stayed up all night throughout the weekend to stand watch at the convergence center guarding against raids too, as i hear it.

also, in the midst of frame-up bs like these guys in chicago are getting subjected to for basically livestreaming video and being outspoken and trying to provide first-aid in dodgy situations, to say "oh no anarchists with their streetfighting ways" is pretty much throwing them to the wolves.

Let's not forget that, unless the trolls who tend to come at me with damning shit have missed it, this weekend saw a lot of cop violence and next to no property destruction I can find report of. There are practical reasons to criticize the black bloc tactic--it's exceedingly difficult to root out provocateurs when anonymity is part of the raison d'etre, for example, and some (wrongly I think) view smashy smashy as an end in itself bcz they expect it to be tinder to light revolt--but I think to use those reasons to tar people who put themselves in harms way to safeguard other demonstrators & ongoing direct actions is at the least narrow-minded.

the folks i spoke to from the marches didn't feel safeguarded by those folks. and i certainly haven't in rallies i've attended. in fact they described and i recall a number of kerchief'd young folk actually pushing their way through lines of the march, shoving other protestors etc. this is commonplace.

i also think those folks are totally tone deaf (to mix senses) in terms of how their swagger and costuming is going to be perceived by the vast majority of folks including many folks in the rallies. this probably seems like small potatoes but it actually seems significant to me.

xp yeah, the only "property damage" i know of is the ripping down of a nato banner on friday. the guy who did that was dearrested that day (by whom i wonder...) and arrested again later i think

i realize we have fundamental disagreements on this stuff.

the guy who did that was dearrested that day (by whom i wonder...)

otm

i realize we have fundamental disagreements on this stuff.

― flesh, the devil, and a wolf (wolf) (amateurist), Tuesday, May 22, 2012 5:12 AM (22 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

sure and i think you're right on about the cultural/signaling issues

like, that's part of why i was so excited about the "clown bloc" when i got word of it--people making defense look jaunty! p disappointed when it turned out they were either A) a joke all along or (more likely) B) unable to get the numbers they wanted and ran a "it was a joke" press release.

like, i once had a long convo with a dc cop

hoos: "you don't have to stand here right now, you know"
cop: "sure i do, or you'll go break a window or something."
hoos: "what? no, some janitor will have to clean it up for shit pay."
cop: "so why do yall cover your faces?"
hoos: *looks around, lowers mask* "cause i don't wanna wind up in the paper and get fired"
cop: "right, you're not trying to look intimidating or gangster, suuuure"

and then i felt like dumb and naive for not realizing that that was how it was seen by most people

yeah i only saw a couple clown bloc people. i was definitely bothered by the organization of some of the unpermitted marches that i went to, like the one in solidarity with the nato 3 on saturday, but that had more to do with young people setting the pace so that all of the older protestors/disabled people/people with kids ended up at the back of the march. the black bloc'ers were the ones making it so that we could keep going

xp

just your comment on march organization made me remember, there's this kind of funny moment in the crimethinc doc 'breaking the spell' where the camera zooms in on a march marshal's hand as it waves/sort of gently implies to passerby "stay over there," but the zoom in is like LOOK AT THE SUBTLE TOTALITARIANISM OF THE MARCH MARSHAL

btw my favorite chant from the weekend, which unfortunately didn't get used on sunday: "we're here, we're queer, we're anarchists we'll fuck you up"

i just get a potent whiff of adolescent bravado/machismo (admittedly there are lots of women among them, but i don't think that precludes using that term) from a lot of these folks and that really, really, really puts me off. there's also a kind of manicheanism to their sensibility (as i understand it through reading stuff they've said/written--and not in the MSM--and chatting w/ them) that likewise i find deeply troubling.

btw my favorite chant from the weekend, which unfortunately didn't get used on sunday: "we're here, we're queer, we're anarchists we'll fuck you up"

― 1staethyr, Tuesday, May 22, 2012 12:26 AM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

this is what i mean.

there's a thin line between "empowerment of the disenfranchised" and "alienating the passive media-watchers", granted. but yeah we are obviously coming at this from different places and I have a lot of other shit going on, sorry for being snappy.

clown bloc is a great idea, would that make you feel better abt it amateurist? (serious question)

twitter also reported "1-2-3-4 fuck the bourgeoisie, 5-6-7-8 fuck the bourgeoisie," which made me lol irl

xxp yeah i understand why it didn't get used in the march, because it would be misread in the way that you did

xxp yeah i understand why it didn't get used in the march, because it would be misread in the way that you did

― 1staethyr, Tuesday, May 22, 2012 12:38 AM (7 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i am reading it as " "we're here, we're queer, we're anarchists we'll fuck you up"--is there some other way to read it?

if it was supposed to be ironic, keep in mind that irony is context-dependent and no way are most people going to see it this way.

you guys are so damned condescending BTW (big hoos excepted), you're kind of making my points for me.

there's also a kind of manicheanism to their sensibility (as i understand it through reading stuff they've said/written--and not in the MSM--and chatting w/ them) that likewise i find deeply troubling.

― flesh, the devil, and a wolf (wolf) (amateurist), Tuesday, May 22, 2012 5:27 AM (7 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i think you're right about this too to a point; it's the kind of logic that leads to attacking groups of white supremacists while they have overtly unobtrusive racist meetings in diners, for example. and like, i'm all for "smash racism" and anti-fascist organizing and all that, but when you attack a person because of what they believe in the misguided name of 'revolutionary violence' or whatever, i'm off your bus.

hoos u get any pussy at these things?

it's playing with stereotypes of violent anarchists while also resisting the violence that's constantly directed at queers and subverting the stereotype of queer people as weak targets of violence? honestly i'm sorry if i come off as condescending. i understand that the chant wouldn't translate to most observers.

I agree with amateurist re: 'we he're we're clear we're anarchist..." slogan. I can only read it as straight truth or irony, and I can't figure out which is worse.

Just wanted to make sure he wasn't alone.

t's playing with stereotypes of violent anarchists while also resisting the violence that's constantly directed at queers and subverting the stereotype of queer people as weak targets of violence? honestly i'm sorry if i come off as condescending. i understand that the chant wouldn't translate to most observers.

Yeah that's pretty dumb.

and i do think there's something to the ethical distinction bb types often draw between violence against a window and violence against a person; clearly these ARA guys don't draw that particular distinction.

when fascists and cops are working together in the streets of greece to attack immigrants and the anarchists in hoodies & bandannas are among the few fighting alongside the immigrants in solidarity, it's one thing. if we were to reach that point in this country and my immediate milieu shifted dramatically i might change my thinking, but

for balance on my part, I don't hate the black blog, I just disagree with certain aspects of their approach. They're more of a problematising element than a straight-up bad one.

it's playing with stereotypes of violent anarchists while also resisting the violence that's constantly directed at queers and subverting the stereotype of queer people as weak targets of violence? honestly i'm sorry if i come off as condescending. i understand that the chant wouldn't translate to most observers.

― 1staethyr, Tuesday, May 22, 2012 12:45 AM (27 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

right, which is why it's not a good thing to be chanting at a highly public, media-saturated rally!

btw i recognize that so far the black bloc stuff has limited itself to property damage rather than hurting people (with a few minor exceptions). but to applaud them for this is itself kind of patronizing, since i don't see the property damage as being efficacious at all (with again, a few minor exceptions). in fact it's incredibly counter-productive.

sorry i feel like we keep going round and round. i apologize for that.

bloc (lol freudian 2.0 slip)

Yeah that's pretty dumb.

― Fas Ro Duh (Gukbe), Tuesday, May 22, 2012 5:46 AM (46 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

idk man i mean radical queers are among the most militant fight-back types i know, and they say it's precisely because they've been repeatedly attacked in life and are sick of being both victims of violence perpetrated by others and merely defined as victims of violence, and they want it known that if someone comes at them they will fight back rather than be a victim

granted that's a sentiment to fit into a 12 syllable chant

(((side issue but: the chant thing reminds me of an issue that comes up re. teaching film and media.

some teachers like to teach what are usefully called "resistant [often willfully ironic] readings"--e.g. seeing "top gun" as a "gay" film. but they also, privately, enjoy feeling superior to their students, who often don't "get" or are themselves resistant to these against-the-grain interpretations/uses. but you can't simultaneously claim something as a "resistant reading" and mock most people for not "getting it.")))

but to applaud them for this is itself kind of patronizing, since i don't see the property damage as being efficacious at all (with again, a few minor exceptions). in fact it's incredibly counter-productive.

sorry i feel like we keep going round and round. i apologize for that.

― flesh, the devil, and a wolf (wolf) (amateurist), Tuesday, May 22, 2012 5:49 AM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i definitely wasn't saying "good for them for not breaking shit," my point was that "hey look, they didn't even break anything and yet people are still mad at them for basically existing and protecting people, the latter of which is almost never recognized by detractors or discussed in the media"

i don't think "the latter of which" is a thing people say, is it

but to applaud them for this is itself kind of patronizing, since i don't see the property damage as being efficacious at all (with again, a few minor exceptions). in fact it's incredibly counter-productive.

sorry i feel like we keep going round and round. i apologize for that.

― flesh, the devil, and a wolf (wolf) (amateurist), Tuesday, May 22, 2012 5:49 AM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i definitely wasn't saying "good for them for not breaking shit," my point was that "hey look, they didn't even break anything and yet people are still mad at them for basically existing and protecting people, the latter of which is almost never recognized by detractors or discussed in the media"

― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Tuesday, May 22, 2012 12:52 AM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

that's probably true. i find it hard to acknowledge the positive contributions since i find their presence and tactics to be counterproductive in the final analysis.

sorry, i guess the disagreement comes from me saying "unfortunately". i personally was excited when people told me about the chant (it wasn't used at any marches afaik, it came from the queer contingent's sign-making and chant-writing party), and i would have felt empowered/excited hearing it coming from a large group of people. it probably wouldn't have been good PR, which makes me kind of sad

xps

i respect the sentiment of the radical queers but holy hell is that not the place. nor is it even remotely as clever as they might think it is (if it isn't straight-up serious and they're just *making a point*).

Yeah that's pretty dumb.

― Fas Ro Duh (Gukbe), Tuesday, May 22, 2012 5:46 AM (46 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

idk man i mean radical queers are among the most militant fight-back types i know, and they say it's precisely because they've been repeatedly attacked in life and are sick of being both victims of violence perpetrated by others and merely defined as victims of violence, and they want it known that if someone comes at them they will fight back rather than be a victim

granted that's a sentiment to fit into a 12 syllable chant

― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Tuesday, May 22, 2012 12:50 AM (6 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

yeah, this

also i instinctively run away from any notion that the best way to fight a history of violent repression is by saying "we'll beat your ass" so that might be informing my opinion.

hoos u get any pussy at these things?

― dylannn, Tuesday, May 22, 2012 5:44 AM (28 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

http://i.imgur.com/s3bUs.jpg?1?3085

would like to say that as a queer anarchist dedicated to nonviolence projecting a tough exterior has helped me personally, and that "fuck you up" doesn't need to be interpreted in a strictly literal manner

how do you think 99% (!) of people are going to interpret that, though?

i mean if some guy wearing clothes that seem a bit weird to you came running up to a group of you and your friends on the street and sad "we're going to fuck you up" what are the chances you will assume he is being lightly ironic and actually invoking a whole history of representation and identity about which you are only dimly aware?

not a perfect analogy but i hope it makes me point.

i mean i think the question is whether one is seeking to be inviting or not? it seems significant to me that the chant in question was abandoned for the march itself--presumably people there thought it wasn't the right audience for the chant, because they weren't actively trying to alienate people. there are plenty of places where one might want to do that, though! places where one's militancy and right to self defense are being challenged like say, a klan counterprotest.

please refer to my earlier post where i agreed with you that it would not have been a good chant for the protest. sorry for starting this argument.

Yeah, in the right context I can see its usefulness, and I'm glad that it was shut down, but it's a stupid idea to be floated in the first place.

Though I'd argue that the only power you get from "fuck you up" is if it's taken in a strictly literal manner. Tough exteriors are only tough if they're backed up by a credible 'toughness'.

makes me point.

apparently since the previous post i went to the east end of london and back.

i mean just speaking as like ~a guy who is short~, which on the totem pole of oppression is somewhere underground near the core of the earth, ~i'd~ feel empowered and stronger if i were part of a bloc doing more confrontational work. i can't imagine what the jump in sense of empowerment might be like for others, but it feels really, really good to hear 1staethyr say that it's meant something & helped.

plz post more <3