Community, the tv show

I think I actually distinguish between the two. I like Community's high-concept stuff but dislike a lot of its meta stuff

Yeah, everyone who's complained about Community beyond just random quibbles about individual episodes needs to get some serious perspective. Like a long-term Ludovico treatment with the bulk of sitcoms that the networks churn out. It's not the best show on TV, but it's easily one of the best sitcoms of the last ten years. It's maintained a pretty high level of quality overall, but it also had a period of genius that has made a lot of people underrate everything that came after. But it's cool. I think once we've all had a little time to sit with NBC's fall 2013 sitcom crop, most people will come around and appreciate this little golden age we've just had.

I think I actually distinguish between the two. I like Community's high-concept stuff but dislike a lot of its meta stuff

e.g. I liked the Law and Order parody and loved the video game ep but was less into "The First Chang Dynasty" and hated "Contemporary Impressionists".

whatever greg daniels' current input on the office is, my point is that it's not really a good example of something to soothe minds on the status of community. though it was based on a british concept, it had a strong hand running it from the beginning, one that wasn't forced off without warning three seasons in. wish devil's advocate optimists would at least rep for post-sorkin west wing or something actually similar in situation.

da croupier, I think you're forgetting that All In The Family was also based on a British sitcom. Case closed, dealwithit.gif.

Mike Schur leaving with Daniels to create P&R is absolutely and clearly the signal of a sea change at the Office, how is this even a vague pondering

"sea change" sure, that's a good way of putting it. i've had people get pissed at me for suggesting that the show started showing cracks immediately post-schur/daniels in season 5, and i still hear a lot of "the office didn't get bad until steve carell's last season/after steve carell left."

already awaiting the "community is still the best thing on at friday at 8:30" defense next fall

West Wing seasons 6 and 7 were fine, but nowhere near the quality of the first two and maybe third. I'm actually a bit of a naysayer about Sorkin's work on the fourth season, but that little slump was still way better than the travesty of season 5. But still, it was his voice that was missed and maybe his desire to show little political morality tales vs Wells' desire to go for straight-up soap opera.

Also remember that The Office was seriously retooled between seasons 1 and 2 (as was Parks and Rec, but to a lesser extent).

xpost But no one would deny that The Office was good enough those first five seasons, which is two longer than Community made it with Harmon. Five seasons of a quality show is pretty good, especially a network comedy.

come on now, what would whiney think

massive xposts but if i ever find myself thinking this, that's when i smash my laptop to smithereens and go check in with the trappist monks

Josh, no offense, but I think you're seriously missing the thrust of some of these arguments.

I mean, I'm not arguing, for example, that The Office wasn't pretty solid for most of those first five seasons. The argument is whether the quality dropped off after that and, if so, whether that had to do with the concurrent change in the person running the show.

I'll try to distill all the gibberish I've been contributing in this thread down to something simple:

—Dan Harmon was vital to the direction of Community. However, I'm not sure I liked where it appeared Community was going.
—I like the actual writing and acting of Community. All the actors are staying and some of the writers appear to be.
—If it ends up being bad, the 4th season will be forgotten in time kind of like the final season of Roseanne (which was inexcusably terrible).
—Dan Harmon is free to start fresh with a new project. I don't think Hollywood has ostracized him (yet).

obv showrunners don't define everything, the office was also suffering from the end of a will-they-won't-they, ed helms giving them one too many nincompoops in the office, a ginormous supporting cast each apparently requiring a line each scene, a shortage of plots that didn't require a field trip. and community had its own woes in s3. Community may well be watchable in the future, but if you loved s2 there's increasingly less reason to assume they'll reach it, and plenty of historical reason the show will get worse.

to demuddy that last bit: there's increasingly less reason to assume they'll reach those kinds of heights, and plenty of historical reason to assume the show will get worse.

Yeah, I say this (again) with the total caveat that I make no premature assumptions about the quality of s4, but a lot of this can be boiled down to: the show is being taken from the person who created it and for whom it is a labor of love and handed to people for whom it is a job.

(Which is not to say that it wasn't a job for Harmon, but his inability to choke down shit and do what what was maybe most prudent from a business angle makes it pretty clear to me that it was more of a labor of love for him.)

My argument has been that before the us office,.everyone was saying it would not work, not least because it was gervais and merchants baby. But it got a new showrunner and another five years and 100 eps or whatever out of an idea most thought was over and done with after a handful of eps. And it faced even bigger changes,.not least an entirely new cast. Why the us office went downhill after five seasons can be chalked up to a confluence of reasons, not least lasting five years.

And I agree there is every reason to believe it will get worse, not better, but I might have said that if Harmon had stayed on.

The first season of the us office is not thought of fondly, and that's likely all the time these new runners will get.

First season sticks closest to what preceded it, though!

You mean because they practically just remade some episodes with new actors?

a new showrunner and another five years

which showrunner and which five years are you counting from?

And it faced even bigger changes,.not least an entirely new cast.

See.....(okay, this is seriously my last attempt at unmuddying these waters): you are talking about one show which was adapted and turned into a wholly different show. In this thread, we're talking about a show that will, ostensibly, be the same show run by an almost completely new creative staff. There may be some similarities between the two processes, but for the purposes of this conversation, there are a lot more differences. If you're trying to draw parallels, you might find it more helpful to do so with the literally dozens of tv shows that have had a regime change at some point during their run (or even the handful of series that have transformed into entirely new shows as a result of massive creative/cast shakeups). Although, even in that respect, Community is in a somewhat unique position inasmuch as it seems likely that very little (or none) of the current production/writing team will be returning.

if we're talking about US adaptations of UK shows:

Graham Linehan ‏@Glinner

Great news! The guys who didn't bother to call me when they did the US IT Crowd are taking over Community!

The thing that strikes me most about Community is that not only will it indulge in nerd shit and genre pastiches/exercises(they've never actually parodied a genre yet), but it will actually do this stuff in service to the characters. The Claymation ep was borne out of Abed's manifestation of not being able to connect with his mom that year via stop-motion Christmas specials. The AD&D ep was about the gang trying to prevent a supporting character from offing himself, but also showing vividly painting the gap one group member had with the rest.

My fear with the next year is that you'll get guys who don't get that crucial point; guys who think like several FB friends of mine who like fucking Big Bang Theory b/c it namechecks nerd shit despite being a sitcom from and having a view of geeks/nerds/weirdos torn from the 80s. The most tangible details, to borrow a phrase from Film Crit Hulk, will be the only thing noticed and the actual point to the scene will be lost.

Plus, I'm afraid that weird jokes like the stoned pizza dude perking up at the concept of other timelines will never, _ever_ happen with folks in control who ain't so obsessive.

And we won't get as much deliberate onscreen hate for Glee.

So much great shit came from the obsessions and pop neuroses of the folks writing the show. And who the hell else gunna let Jim Rash run wild like that?

Great news! The guys who didn't bother to call me when they did the US IT Crowd are taking over Community!

Oh, shit. And that's the (apparently godawful) show Joel McHale did a pilot for before getting his Community gig. Wow, if I didn't really love the cast and want the show to still be good at least for their sake, this could be a great 13-episode slice of schadenfreude coming our way.

Re: Linehan. Holy shit, it is a small-ass world, innit?

Linehan kills the IT Crowd last year letting Chris ODowd and Richard Ayoade come to Hollywood, Jessica St Clair(who played Jen in the American pilot) gets her NBC show canceled, and Joel Mchale(who was to play Odowd's role) hangs in there on the show Linehan watches, which Ayoade has directed at least one ep of.

Xp, naturally. Like I said, small world.

Anybody know if Moffat's ever commented on this show?

so was i the only one who thought the finale was not that funny and easily the weakest of those last 3? i was never that big on the timeline thing, though, 'evil version of me has goatee!' is almost as oppressively corny as 'beverly hills cop theme on keytar guys!'

I think you're hitting the keytar thing a little too hard, sd. What would you have preferred Chang to play (especially since the presence of "Axel F" was, like, the fifth furthest thing from the point of that sequence)?

Wasn't as funny, true, but it had more heavy lifting to do, and wasn't a paintball ep.

Also, 'beverly hills cop theme on keytar guys!' isn't really that funny, but 'beverly hills cop theme on keytar guys!' played by a short Asian-American in full Napoleon costume is much funnier.

sorry, i was ranting about how keytar is a played out comedy device five years ago so i'm appalled to a see a show i like resort to that (xpost)

And that's the (apparently godawful) show Joel McHale did a pilot for before getting his Community gig.

I saw about five minutes of it online...it was painful. It mangled one of the original IT Crowd jokes and just had this stilted BBT comedic timing. And I really like Jessica St. Clair and McHale, but they both came off as corny and awful because of the way it was written and directed.

And who the hell else gunna let Jim Rash run wild like that?

kingfish otm. And are the new guys gonna allow for improvisation? "I have the weirdest boner" was an ad-lib.

yeah i want to believe that the chemistry and sensibility of the cast will carry the show, but considering that the highlights of McHale's film career are What's Your Number? and a Spy Kids sequel i have some concerns that dude's taste is not as great as i assume it to be

sorry, i was ranting about how keytar is a played out comedy device five years ago so i'm appalled to a see a show i like resort to that (xpost)

Yeah, but I mean...that keytar is an established Chang-fectation (so, so sorry) from, what, season 1? It's just about maintaining continuity, man?

i didn't remember that, sorry i didn't realize Community had already sunk to keytar lols years ago

McHale's standup, The Soup bits, and Loveline appearances probably a far more accurate depiction of his sensibility than a movie script, I must say.

Keytar was excusable for the scene where Chang wrecked Jeff's car with one, and the subsequent struggle/"We're just jammin'!"/tasing.

(also, "Did you say 'keytar,' or did you say 'guitar' like a hillbilly?")

Yeah, iirc, Chang wanted to re-enrol as a music theory student in order to improve his compositional chops on the keytar. I think I would have liked to see a Greendale music theory class.

McHale's standup, The Soup bits, and Loveline appearances probably a far more accurate depiction of his sensibility than a movie script, I must say.

― Choad of Choad Hall (kingfish), Sunday, May 20, 2012 9:55 PM (11 minutes ago) Bookmark

oh i know, and he gets writing credits on The Soup etc. but when he picks shitty projects it makes me wonder how much he just kinda got lucky w/ Community.

Anybody know if Moffat's ever commented on this show?

no but: last week Neil Gaiman, who is a fan, responded to the youtube of Karen Gillan wishing she could be be in Inspector Spacetime by wishing he could write any Inspector Spacetime scenes that Gillan might be in.

On Saturday he responded to Harmon's blog post with

You know that bit a few days ago where I volunteered to write an Inspector Spacetime bit for Community if they took Karen G up on her offer to guest-Amy-Pond it?

That statement is, I am afraid, no longer operative.

An hour or two later, he won a Nebula for the episode of Who he wrote with Amy Pond in it.

Holy fuck, Britta in glasses.

(Watching "Introduction to Finality" now.)

i think they did that gag quickly in the law and order ep, too

I just thought she was hot in glasses. I think you're right though.

Liked the finale. It had heart.

massive xposts but if i ever find myself thinking this, that's when i smash my laptop to smithereens and go check in with the trappist monks

that was sarcasm

but i still didn't like seeing two theme eps one after another. wouldn't have cared if they were separated by weeks but seeing them back to back like that gave me a srs case of the come on guyses

otoh if next season was literally just 13 different gimmick/homage eps i'd be happy. i'd also be happy if next season was awkwardly terrible because sony is running the show and has no idea what to do with it. that'd be an entertaining switch. i'm excited!

i agree -- given what's gone down, i just want to see them go for broke one way or another.

One thing I think has led to the uneven quality of the show is that so much of the time they really are swinging for the fences, as it were