Mark Millar's Ubermensch

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Tep, I'd counter with "If it can always be fixed, then is it ever really broken?"

Your moment of zen...

Matt Maxwell (Matt M.), Wednesday, 1 December 2004 17:01 (nineteen years ago) link

Sure it is, though -- otherwise you could spend a character's whole history going back and forth between fixes and breaks, like Wolverine (whose marketability never faltered, granted) or Hawkman (who pretty much became an untouchable until the JSA series). I mean, I can get my microwave fixed when it breaks, but it would still be better to have one that didn't break in the first place.

Tep (ktepi), Wednesday, 1 December 2004 18:41 (nineteen years ago) link

FYI - the Millar Superman stuff is all hypothetical; it's what he'd do if he were (finally) given the chance to right all the supposed wrongs w/ the Superman franchise. I think I (mistakenly) got the idea that some of you think this is actually happening. Supposedly, from the rumour mill (HI G00GLING RICH JOHNSTON), there's another Crisis in the works (by Geoff Johns & Phil Jiminez), & the post-Crisis Superman team is to be Grant Morrison & Frank Quitely. (PS - HELL YEAH!)

Millar's Ultimate X-Men is just odd. Some great bits, some bits where everything drags on, some bits where stuff just happens seemingly because it's convenient to get it out of the way. Also, it bites A LOT from the movie (the way Gus Van Sant "bit" Psycho).

Also, conveniently enough - the 1st issue of the new Ultimates series is out today. I loved the first Ultimates arc, vaguely adored the 2nd arc (that A = France thing notwithstanding), & am hoping for a return to the good stuff w/ the 2nd season.

David R. (popshots75`), Wednesday, 1 December 2004 18:42 (nineteen years ago) link

Dude, Morrison should so do Crisis. I mean, I don't know, have the editors get together and figure out what the final outcome should be -- and take their time doing it, and actually figure it out in advance instead of having that weird transitional time like during/after the last Crisis -- but Morrison has shown plenty of times that he can do Big Crazy Cosmic.

Plus, if Morrison did Crisis and a Superman reboot, they could logically be connected -- which makes sense if you want to preserve Superman's status as the preeminent DC superhero despite his post-Golden Age lack of seniority.

Also: you googlepoofed GOOGLE! Of all the people to google themselves, they ... well, just might.

Tep (ktepi), Wednesday, 1 December 2004 18:49 (nineteen years ago) link

As much as I love both of them, Quitely on a monthly book = uh-oh!

As politically insensitive as the A thing is, I did think it was very funny. And acceptable in someone who's been frozen since 1940.

Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Wednesday, 1 December 2004 20:40 (nineteen years ago) link

Yeah, that's what I came around too, Andrew, re: justifying it - Ultimate Cap's a square jingo rah-rah soldier, so of course he's liable to say something dopey like that. (Also, doesn't he say that to the head Skrull, which adds a certain li'l something to its absurdity?)

As for FQ on a monthly - if they give him a head start, and have a fill-in art issue every so often (by, oh, I dunno, Philip Bond), then it could be sweeeeeeeeeeeeeet.

David R. (popshots75`), Wednesday, 1 December 2004 21:42 (nineteen years ago) link

I guess the "A != France" statement in the latter half of Ultimates (Season I) is equal to the "HULK HORNY" stuff in the first half of Ultimates.

David R. (popshots75`), Wednesday, 1 December 2004 21:47 (nineteen years ago) link

I am amusing myself imagining Quitely doing all the Superman books. There is little that would excite me more (well, in comics at least) than the prospect of a lengthy Morrison run on Superman.

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Wednesday, 1 December 2004 22:14 (nineteen years ago) link

Poxy fule ate this earlier, but: I assume it's impractical for reasons beyond just "we want to not do it this way" (i.e. writers and artists don't want to wait a year or two for their royalties, etc), but if you could get Crisis written and a year or two of Superman both written and drawn -- in their entirety -- before going live with them, you'd have plenty of time to properly build the relaunch titles around your flagships, avoid the 80s' post-Crisis disasters, and preempt the possibility of delays (or the more likely possibility of fill-in artists).

Tep (ktepi), Wednesday, 1 December 2004 22:25 (nineteen years ago) link

A=France thing: if Cap remembers fighting alongside French resistance fighters like it was yesterday, but doesn't remember the demonisation of France over the intervening years, then yeah, it looks silly. But aside from the occasional depression reference, nobody ever examines Cap's cultural sense, so Millar's not committing any new crimes there.

I think his Superman thing deifies Elliott S! Maggin just a little too much. The guy had an awful lot of good ideas but I think his total negation of Clark Kent wasn't one of them. All this "Yeah yeah he's jesus but he's an alien jesus" thing feels really cold and dispassionate. Not quite as dispassionate as Byrne's cold, joyless sexing-up tactics, but still, not somebody who'd actually interest me on any human level.

Vic Fluro, Wednesday, 1 December 2004 23:37 (nineteen years ago) link

The "but he's an alien!" thing sounds like his Superman version of the "but he's from the 40s!" thing he seems to be doing with Cap (I'm basing that latter only on what's been said in this thread and the assumption that Millar's rhetoric is not significantly different from the other people who've advocated the take) -- even on a surface level it doesn't quite work (I'm not convinced any writer who has harped about the need to portray Cap as "a man out of the past" has had much of a handle on history or what men of the past were like, and making any kind of "but he's an alien!" argument that's expected to stand on its own merits needs more than handwaving), and beyond that I'm not sure it leads to any good stories. No one gives a crap how the character's bio reads in Who's Who -- they just want the stories.

You can certainly formulate an argument for a new version of Superman who's more attracted to dogs than to Lois (or Cat Grant or Lana or Wonder Woman) because of the biology of Kryptonian physical attraction and the coincidental similarity of canine pheromones. You can come up with perfectly good science for it, and you can write a couple issues that will be funny and make people talk about it on the internet. That doesn't make it a good idea.

Tep (ktepi), Thursday, 2 December 2004 00:06 (nineteen years ago) link

That also doesn't make it a bad idea.

The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Thursday, 2 December 2004 15:03 (nineteen years ago) link

Arf!

Huk-L, Thursday, 2 December 2004 16:18 (nineteen years ago) link

On a certain level I am of the opinion that anything which angers fanboys is automatically a Good Idea.

The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Thursday, 2 December 2004 16:55 (nineteen years ago) link

(For example, I loved the brief period in the X-Men when Wolverine devolved into a mute dogman.)

The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Thursday, 2 December 2004 16:56 (nineteen years ago) link

Dan for Emperor!

Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Thursday, 2 December 2004 17:22 (nineteen years ago) link

I'm almost afraid to ask, but what on Earth do fanboys have to do with anything?

Tep (ktepi), Thursday, 2 December 2004 18:24 (nineteen years ago) link

The type of storytelling you're reacting against is the type of storytelling that fanboys react against; shaking up the status quo of an established character for the sake of shaking up the status quo. Invariably these are my favorite types of stories, particularly when the go out of their way to smash series taboos (for example, in Doctor Who fiction there was a series of stories the built out of a writer explicitly paradoxing one of the televised stories into oblivion, including a story arc where both the Doctor's TARDIS and Gallifrey were destroyed).

The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Thursday, 2 December 2004 19:08 (nineteen years ago) link

Gotcha. That's only part of it, though. My problem with Millar's approach isn't that he sometimes does that; it's that it seems to be the only thing he knows how to do. If he's hired accordingly, that works out, but when your schtick is shaking up the status quo, and you have your sights set on rebooting Superman ... it just isn't going to work. Your job in that position is to establish a new status quo, and you can't just define that as "Byrne was a nob."

I'm not saying the status quo can never change at all, or temporarily, but you need other things going on in between the shake-ups, and if you don't want constant traffic of readers coming and going, you need to use the shake-ups conservatively or have some reason for them. (One of the reasons the X-books work, I think, is because the cast is so large -- if all that stuff happened to the FF, you'd really be pushing it.)

Even in the terms you've just described them, they're limited-use stories -- you can't constantly smash series taboos without taking the time to establish those taboos in between.

It's like Tivo -- there was a long article on Tivo the other day about how a lot of the appeal of it is to bypass commercials, but broadcast television is paid for by commercials, so if everyone had Tivo, there wouldn't be anything to watch with it. Guys like Millar only have stories to write when the industry keeps them in the minority.

Tep (ktepi), Thursday, 2 December 2004 19:16 (nineteen years ago) link

Even in the terms you've just described them, they're limited-use stories -- you can't constantly smash series taboos without taking the time to establish those taboos in between.

I'd think that's an obvious point. It's also something that Millar does, from what I've read ("The Authority", "Ultimate X-Men"); Millar more than Ellis was the one who planted the seeds of The Authority as liberal fascists in that book and shortly after deviating from the mainstream X-template he set relatively firm parameters on the types of stories he was going to do in UnlXM.

The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Thursday, 2 December 2004 22:07 (nineteen years ago) link

I was thinking about this on the way to work this morning, and the reason for Clark Kent seems to be that he's the personality who can do all the good that the Superman persona can't. Superman can't bust into the Oval Office and beat up the President, or even run protection rackets like he used to do back when he couldn't fly - he's only able in that mode to be a general example to humanity of an all-purpose Good Guy. Clark then becomes the Superman who has power on levels Supes himself doesn't - the power of the press. He should be a one-man Woodward and Bernstein, fighting for Truth and Justice using his superpowers in the role of reporter, because that's the role in which he can make real social changes. Lois, meanwhile, is as interested in celeb-Hello style scoops as she is in real news, so she's equally into getting Superman's real identity as she is in joining him and Clark on their quest for Truth. Heroine and villainess in one gal!

Luthor, meanwhile, is utterly pro-human and for that reason is determined to destroy this freaky alien who's skewing human development with his very presence. He should have been a hero of humanity, only Superman turned up and now he's determined to wipe out this evolution-retarding anomaly by any means necessary, including robbing banks/killing people/assassinating the President.

I AM THE NEW MARK MILLAR.

Vic Fluro, Thursday, 2 December 2004 23:54 (nineteen years ago) link

That completely works, though! That's exactly the kind of take that can feed a reboot that would survive for more than just a couple years. The Luthor part alone is something you could run with for storyline after storyline, especially if he's sort of Superman's Jameson -- he likes other superheroes, just not this Kryptonian creep. (Maybe he likes Superman until it's revealed the dude's an alien, if that's not something that's made clear in his public debut.)

Superman'll talk about how Luthor keeps trying to sic giant robots on him, and the Justice League gets all awkward and looks away and is like, "Well look, Kal, thing is, he bought us this geosynchronous defense satellite, and we didn't even ask for it, Lex seems pretty cool ... maybe you guys should just talk or something..?"

Tep (ktepi), Friday, 3 December 2004 00:02 (nineteen years ago) link

it's completely ripped off from both Elliott S Maggin and Grant Morrison. I might have mentioned that my favourite Luthor story EVAH is 'The Einstein Connection' (available free for the googling online, and connected with a grate Supes-in-the-future story which works really, really well). That's the one where every year Luthor breaks out of prison (like he can do every day if he feels like it) and does something Einstein-related on Einstein's birthday, and at the end he saves a kid's life ("I can't let him die - not today!") and Supes captures him again because of that, and takes Luthor to Einstein's statue (where he can never, ever go because he'd be instantly arrested). AND LUTHOR CRIES! "Happy Birthday... Sir."

And then at the end, Luthor thanks Superman, and Superman says "My pleasure, but do try to be good!" It's two people who have no option but to try to defeat each other, but have respect for each other anyway. (Actually, Supes sounds like a smug git, but he always does due to his Superness.)

Maggin's finest hour by a long way.

Vic Fluro, Friday, 3 December 2004 00:17 (nineteen years ago) link

Plus I love the idea that Superman can think at superspeed and do these incredibly complex calculations about ballistics and magnetism and whatever else he needs to do for his super-feats to work properly and not kill anyone - AND LUTHOR IS STILL SMARTER THAN HIM, without even trying hard.

Vic Fluro, Friday, 3 December 2004 00:27 (nineteen years ago) link

two months pass...
They already did it! Check this page out.

http://superman.ws/tales3/president/?page=17

Unfortunately this sequence is spoiled somewhat by him using his Kent power to tear down a nuclear plant and replace it with the environmentally-friendly alternative of... a coal-burning plant. Yay Superman.

Vic Fluro, Wednesday, 23 February 2005 23:55 (nineteen years ago) link

six months pass...
This seems like a good thread to revive to talk about Millar's "Holocaust Wolverine" issue.

Jordan (Jordan), Thursday, 22 September 2005 13:43 (eighteen years ago) link

Which, really, is pretty good. And not very Millar-like, it seems to me.

Jordan (Jordan), Thursday, 22 September 2005 13:45 (eighteen years ago) link

Although, you'd think Wolverine could be doing something more proactive during WWII than using the concentration camps to satisfy his masochistic tendencies and waiting for the Germans to kill themselves.

Jordan (Jordan), Thursday, 22 September 2005 13:50 (eighteen years ago) link

holocaust wolverine?!

s1ocki (slutsky), Thursday, 22 September 2005 14:16 (eighteen years ago) link

"A very special issue of Wolverine"

ihttp://www.buzzscope.com/reviews/4919/4919_1.jpg

Jordan (Jordan), Thursday, 22 September 2005 14:28 (eighteen years ago) link

403 FORBIDDEN

s1ocki (slutsky), Thursday, 22 September 2005 14:30 (eighteen years ago) link

that should probably be 403 VERBOTEN huh

s1ocki (slutsky), Thursday, 22 September 2005 14:30 (eighteen years ago) link

Ha, try this:

http://www.buzzscope.com/reviews.php?id=4919

Jordan (Jordan), Thursday, 22 September 2005 14:34 (eighteen years ago) link

i wanna read this now! uh... YSI?

s1ocki (slutsky), Thursday, 22 September 2005 14:37 (eighteen years ago) link

Sorry dude, I've only got it on paper.

Jordan (Jordan), Thursday, 22 September 2005 14:39 (eighteen years ago) link

pa-per?

s1ocki (slutsky), Thursday, 22 September 2005 14:40 (eighteen years ago) link

the comic shop was sold out of this issue :(

anybody got a cbr?

s1ocki (slutsky), Friday, 30 September 2005 18:10 (eighteen years ago) link

seventeen years pass...

At some point between this thread and 2008 I decided Millar was an objectively terrible writer but I’m not sure when I made that decision. I’m very surprised to see myself arguing in favor of the existence of Ultimate X-Men, which aged at the time like an armpit full of sour cream and that I actively hated after like 3 issues.

castanuts (DJP), Friday, 27 January 2023 22:18 (one year ago) link

Yeah, sometime after Ultimates 2 (which I remmeber as being excellent but have no wish to revisit) he got bad and stayed bad IMO.

Chuck_Tatum, Wednesday, 1 February 2023 19:13 (one year ago) link


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