the rolling Final Crisis thread

the St. Roch Hawkman stuff was good

I dig Hawkman's current incarnation

but no let's make Hakwman an MAGIC ANGEL who can do ANYTHING

much cooler

also I'm sorry this happens to me all the time I forget that everyone else likes the Britishing of American comics

I like the whole color coded corps thing, moving along

I like the whole color coded corps thing, moving along

Yeah, we're definitely on "agree-to-disagree" turf now.

one day I will make a big ranty post about how the British have ruined hero books

today is not that day

also I was almost-but-not-really bummed that the Reach has nothing to do with the Color Corps thing

See, I thought the Fourth World stuff in 7S was <i>incredibly</i> respectful of Kirby--using Shilo Norman was a brilliant move. That's one of the things I love about Morrison's DCU work: he takes <i>everything</i> that's previously been published as canon, both story and characterization. It's like the basic rule of improv: you never ever contradict something somebody else has said, you just figure out an interesting way to build on it.

Other comics people with a notorious love affair with reimagination: Julie Schwartz (fuck a Silver Age), Stan Lee (why'd he have to go and do that to the Human Torch?), Alan Moore (Swamp Thing was so much cooler when he could turn back into Alec Holland), etc.

sorry about the badly formatted itals there...

See, I thought the Fourth World stuff in 7S was incrediblyrespectful of Kirby

Right? I think AJ's argument was a pretty simplistic "they didn't look like the New Gods, therefore Morrison is pee-peeing on Kirby" thing. The only real outright change I can think of in 7S was with Klarion, but it's not like Klarion had an intricately-woven tapestry of backstory to begin with.

yeah no Darkseid as the Kingpin that wasn't a change

but I was trying to move on

HEY GUYS -- CRISIS!

List of one-shots & minis (according to the Wiki page):

Final Crisis: Legion of Three Worlds (5 issues)
Final Crisis: Rage of the Red Lanterns (One-Shot)
Final Crisis: Requiem (One-Shot)
Final Crisis: Resist (One-Shot)
Final Crisis: Revelations (5 issues)
Final Crisis: Rogue's Revenge (3 issues)
Final Crisis: Submit (One-Shot)
Final Crisis: Superman Beyond (One-Shot)

MUCH cleaner than Countdown (thankfully). Only 2 announced in-stream x-overs so far -- 1 issue of JLA to coincide w/ FC #1, and 2 issues of Batman following the whole thing.

I once saw AJ Styles wrestle at a redneck bar in Georgia in 2000. He was pretty awesome.

And you could easily make an argument about British writers not quite respecting traditional American superheroics, but Morrison is pretty much the last guy you'd ever want to mention in such an argument.

Dude, AJ:

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/109/284904726_42e39562c4.jpg?v=0

Hamburglar costume = Kingpin Darkseid, dude in Hamburglar costume = 4-REALZ Darkseid. GEDDIT?

MUCH cleaner than Countdown (thankfully).

Yeah, but wasn't Countdown originally intended to be much less unwieldy until DC figured out they could make lots of money crossovering the shit out of it? I don't think all of those minis and specials and ongoing series tie-ins were intended when it all first started, if I remember correctly.

so it's going to be like that

also I thought Countdown Arena was a great idea, and then I actually read it

so who can know how this will turn out (answer: not as shitty as Secret Invasion)

Zauriel was a bad idea? I missed the memo. He might not have been sterling, but awful? Nah.

And yeah, if you want new ideas instead of reimaginations of franchise characters, superhero comics are largely not for you. Me? I can do without a lot of 'em, but when they're done very well, there's nothing that sings like 'em.

Not hugely excited over the idea of FINAL CRISIS, but I'll give it a couple of issues should I and they be in a shop at the same time (not a given with my schedule.)

xpost

Aw, I ain't tryin' to pick fights, AJ. You just seem to be the Anti-Me, is all. Which maybe isn't a bad thing at all, depending on who you ask.

Are you British, Deric?

Yeah, but wasn't Countdown originally intended to be much less unwieldy until DC figured out they could make lots of money crossovering the shit out of it?

That'd explain the dodgy quality of most of the x-over shit, tho I can't imagine how DD & company thought books centered around Captain Carrot & obscure villians from the Giffen / DeMatteis run on Justice League EUROPE would actually sell. From what I remember from the Diamond Charts, most (if not all) Countdown minis sold about as well as a high-selling Vertigo title, which I'm guessing was a result they weren't hoping for.

xpost

Nope. I'm not even particularly much of an Anglophile. I think it's fair to say I'm a Morrison-phile, though. And, to be honest, I think his revisionist approach is, as noted above, much more reverential than most of rest of the British Wave.

I thought Extremists did a passable job of parodying Ultimate Marvel's awfulness, but otherwise, yeah, wtf

Yeah--I thought both Countdown and its crossovers were terrible.

Also! That DC Universe reprint special this week includes the first and only previous (Len Wein-written) appearance of Libra, as well as the Martian Manhunter story with the Human Flame.

I think Morrison also noted that as far as he was concerned, the first Kirby Klarion story could take place when Klarion, now master of the Kosmik Kubes or whatever those dice were, traveled to the past immediately after Seven Soldiers #1.

Also! Opening four-page scene of Legion of Three Worlds is here: http://www.wizarduniverse.com/050708legionprev.html .

Why are you giving this xenophobic moron the time of day (aside from his 'theory' abt the 'Britishing of American comics' being utter horsehit, "that Joker issue was AIDS in comic book form" = a new low for ILC)

I love all people of all nations

except for Great Britain

also I was almost-but-not-really bummed that the Reach has nothing to do with the Color Corps thing

Yeah, me too. It kinda looked like the GLC was gonna play a bigger role in the Reach's background/future, but I think Jaime dodged a ROY G. BIV bullet by not getting (deeply) wrangled into a GL x-over.

Also, yay difference of opinions!?!

Now that I think of it, yeah, Jaime is much cooler as a semi-unique character as opposed to one among many. My mind = changed.

yay difference of opinions!?!

yeah, but I've not seen anyone I know spend 18 months physically withering and turning blotchy before they die because their internal organs were unable to work with each other from reading a comic book before

AJ Styles is hilarious!

BTW the rainbow of Lantern Corps is definitely awesome. At least he's right about that.

on this Legion Of Three Worlds thingo - what are the three versions in this Perez image? http://images.wizarduniverse.com/WizardUniverse/Previews/legion1.jpg

I can't pick any of them as being consistently pre-Crisis/post-Crisis-pre-reboot...

Middle one = pre-Crisis (they're all older, Blok is present, Night Girl has beehive, Tyroc has white streak in his Afro)

Left one = post-Zero Hour reboot (Ferro is alive, Gates and XS are present)

Right one = Waid/Kitson reboot (Chameleon has dot eyes, Star Boy is black)

I tried reading 7S in prep for Final Crisis, but I got confused midway through Shining Knight. Is there an essay/review/article something out there that could shed some light on 7S for me?

Middle one = pre-Crisis (they're all older

uh, older, right - the long hair on Lightning Lad and Ultra Boy, and never-seen-before costumes on Wildfire, Polar Boy, Invisible Kid II (Jacques with the streak, not Tyroc), Saturn Girl, Cosmic Boy, Lightning Lad (sleeveless), maybe Vi, I think Dawnstar, and Brainiac 5 (ie ALMOST HALF THE TEAM SHOWN) threw me, along with there not being anywhere in continuity this could possibly fit [and it obviously deleting the Five Year Gap from continuity :( ] were throwing me. And I've got no idea who floating head with ponytail is.

I knew that alien down the bottom left was from post-Zero Hour but half the others in that stripe have pre-Crisis costumes (or closer to the pre-Crisis costumes than the middle stripe)!

Man I would like to read a Perez Legion comic but I don't think this is going to be for me.

I like the dot eyes on Cham! Good one, Mr Kitson.

E.F.G.: yikes, you're right, Invisible Kid II, thanks... the sleeveless Lightning Lad (and redesigned costumes) are As Seen In "Superman and the Legion of Super-Heroes" in Action Comics.

(The most recent issue of Action Comics is basically Superman being all nostalgic about how nice it is to be hanging out with his childhood pal Garth again and Batman going "wtf, I've met three different versions of the Legion over the years, and I don't even know if your so-called childhood pal is from one of them or something else entirely.")

Mordy, you'll be wanting to look at http://www.barbelith.com/faq/index.php/Seven_Soldiers_FAQ:_A_Beginner%27s_Guide . Or I'm happy to answer questions about 7S, having spent rather a lot of time chipping away at it. Not that I'm not likely to make dumbass mistakes anyway.

AJ Styles AIDS comment was in regard to Grant M's "Clayface is AIDS in human form" Arkham Asylum notes, right? Cos otherwise fuck. I can prob help w 7S qestions too, if by some weird chance Douglas can't

Dude I know did lots and lots of notes on a. n. other message board while Seven Soldiers was coming out, and R!ch J0hnston nicked some of them

They had an add in the current issue of Detective with the Batman R.I.P. cross over list. It looks to have more issues than Final Crisis.

I went to a shop in Cinci Wednesday and they had two early 70s Batman that seem to tie direct into what Morrison is up to, as one has Batman in front of a tombstone that hat BRUCE WAYNE R.I.P. and another issue has the oddball villain with the fingers on his hands.

"he wanted Zauriel to be the new Hawkman, actually"

To be honest, if you are going to go so far from the original character, they might as well make a new character. Zauriel has wings, that is about all that is really that similar to Hawkman.

For example, I always thought Dr. Fate had some potential to be a really cool character. Back in the 80s, I was so exited that JM DeMatteis and Keith Giffen were actually going to do a miniseries with the character, as I figure you got this mystical guy who is an archaeologist someone could really put this into something cool. What did they do? They killed of the main character and came up with some odd new age version with this man and woman who 'become' Dr. Fate. Criminy, if you are going to do something like that...just create a character that fits that. To me, I don't think anyone ever really did much with the character as it was setup before blowing it away and starting over or building up. The thing is that they have done even worse since then (Hector Hall, who you kidding?), but I did like how the helmet was used in 52.

Another character I thought was cool that DC has really screwed up is the Spectre. I can see maybe wanting to change things around, as John Ostrander had done two series and nearly 100 issues of the character building upon the 70s stories by Fleisher and Aparo with Jim Corrigan. Making Hal Jordan the Spectre, what the heck are you smoking? Then they take it another step and ruin a good cop character in Chrispus Allen.

If I was given the keys to the DC Universe, wiping out a bunch of the crap stories around Dr. Fate and the Spectre would be something I would get done.

The thing that is happening is that if you want the Batman RIP or Final Crisis story, all you have to do is read Batman or Final Crisis. The other books deal with themes, but are not the main story. It's not a crossover in the sense of, say, Messiah Complex. DC aren't being dicks about this, but they are being commercially sensible. They could exploit this more than they could, definitely.

The smart thing DC is doing this summer is that they've got Final Crisis going on, but at the same time, they've got their main characters off in major storylines of their own, or at least Batman, Superman, and Green Lantern. I'm honestly quite excited for Final Crisis, Batman RIP, Legion of Three Worlds, and the ongoing Blackest Night thing in GL, definitely much more so than anything happening at Marvel. Things at Marvel happen at such a glacial pace now, DC is much more brisk and exciting these days. I say this as a person with a lifelong bias for Marvel.

Because I am a fool:

http://finalcrisisannotations.blogspot.com/

You're a genius! I need a hand-holder for this thing.

Yeah, really. I'm more a DC guy than a Marvel guy, but all these millions of continuity thingies go over my head.

I'd just like to say that, although the Final Crisis Sketchbook is blatantly just Morrison and Jones get pissed in a pub and scrawl/draw on napkins, it has made me incredibly excited about the whole endeavour.

I'd just like to agree.

Being that I just gave it a read, I'd say Grant Morrison is probably going to reference some stuff in the JLA 'Rock of Ages' storyline. There are a whole lot of things in that story with Darkseid and the New Gods that seem to parallel what might be coming in Final Crisis.

Oddly enough in the next JLA trade 'Strength in Numbers' the concluding issue of one storyline is titled 'Seven Soldiers of Probability', which includes the Justice League trying to fix history as something has changed and Bruce Wayne never becomes Batman.

I've not finished Grant Morrison's run on JLA, so I don't know if the whole thing where "Earth needs to prepare for the big one coming up" was ever resolved. The New Gods are a big part of these two stories with Highfather sending Orion and Barda to join the league because of this preparation.

I think I need to break down and check out those Seven Soldiers series and give them a read.

Yeah, the big one turned up. It was a supermassive planet-destroying anti-sun sort of thing.

Interesting comparison...

http://www.ellroy.com/crimewave.jpg http://i.newsarama.com/dcnew/FinalCrisis/t_FCCv1bnewsarama.jpg

I want to believe.

But my lack of faith is indeed disturbing.

Kidd's done a bunch of Ellroy, but is that one him?

It is--see the bottom left.

http://sitb-images.amazon.com/Qffs+v35leqb0GDX/Qx6GuKWqk329BduykRzMvKvsCTokFDUbobhSM8TpAJKDs6h

Recycling in action!

It's a great design tho, and it works better tweaked a little on FC

Not wanting to spoil anything much but:

- It read a lot better the second time, for me.

- I get the strong impression (and wasn't there an interview with someone basically confirming this?) that Grant M had a list of things he needed to be in place before the series started, and that the versions of those things ACTUALLY in place are either annoyingly or flagrantly different, so it looks like Final Crisis is just ignoring stuff that happened very recently. By the time the series ends people will have stopped caring about this I expect, but it explains some of the slightly dampened reaction and reviews.

- The early reviews seem also to be taking a "not much happens" line, which seems baffling to me until you realise they're (overtly or not) measuring it against Secret Invasion. Which I also like! But there's more than one way to do a crossover, and it's a shame if first issues now have to be slam-bang rather than slow build. Morrison's been pretty open about the structure of Final Crisis being basically a spike - things get worse and worse and worse and then evil wins, and presumably the remainder is evil un-winning again (or not, who knows). So no surprise that the stuff that happens - and LOTS happens - is mostly piece-moving and setting bad stuff in motion.

- That said I think GM's using some of his Seven Soldiers style pacing again - lots of epic shit is going down, but largely off-panel or briefly on while we look at the things which are going to be genuinely important. I think a lot of readers won't be expecting or wanting that from a 'summer event'.

- Lots and lots of great bits though - my favourite being the Alpha Lanterns double-page spread - and in a single sequence he's made the Monitors intriguing, even if it introduces a thing we'd surely have seen mentioned before. He's got the tone right, and the moments right, it's just a case of seeing how well things tie together.

It's just that it seems like one of those things where you would need to have a PhD in the (rubbish) DC Universe to have the vaguest idea what's going on.

Gah! No! FC proper is totally formulated to be self-contained. Yes, there are lots of obscure references that enhance the text if you understand them, but you aren't left in the dark if you don't. It's one of the few superhero-centric comics I'd feel comfortable recommending to a non-comics person (assuming that person has a generally competent level of reading comprehension, as that seems to be the biggest stumbling block w/r/t reading FC).

You guys I am totally going to do my page-by-page explanatory walkthrough of Final Crisis as a video. No, seriously. In about a month. (I've been called upon to do it at a couple of parties already.)

It's one of the few superhero-centric comics I'd feel comfortable recommending to a non-comics person

Really? Even if I agree that it doesn't an extensive knowledge of DC trivia to read Final Crisis, I can't imagine anyone without a good knowledge of superheroes as a genre appreciating it. So much of it plays with, comments on, takes for granted, and deconstructs superhero comic conventions (and also specific conventions relating to Batman and Superman) that I certainly wouldn't recommend it to anyone who isn't familiar with those conventions. Take Superman Beyond 3D, for example: the whole thing is pretty much a meta-commentary on superhero stories. I can't imagine the bits about the Limbo of forgotten characters or about the alternate universes would make much sense even to a indie comic reader who's unfamiliar with superheroes, let alone to someone who hasn't read comics at all.

someone get ready to edit in Tuomas every ten seconds going "but what about--?"

x-post Tuomas OTM

I guess the Limbo thing was better explained in Animal Man, where it first appeared, but if you only come across it in Final Crisis, you'll probably have to already know what the term "comic book limbo" means in order to understand that you're seeing a literal interpretation of the metaphor.

As a casual comics Christian, I would definitely not recommend Final Crisis to me, let alone to a comics infidel. Maybe offer the All-Star Superman instead?

I'd definitely watch that walkthrough, Douglas! I still haven't figured out the answers to most of the questions I asked upthread.

what would be in the walk through? is it the kind of footnotes people do to those League of Extraordinary Gentlemen Comics, so people can get all the references to DC nerd stuff Grant Morrison drops?

the rolling Final Crisis thread

I pretty much never agree with Tuomas about anything but he's OTM about FC being near incomprehensible to non-DC comics nerds. It was near incomprehensible TO ME and I have more than a passing familiarity with most of the major characters (never heard of Anthro before tho)

yeah, I pretty much just tried to find a way to enjoy it without having to understand it.

Has there ever been a big superhero crossover event that would be comprehensible to non-superhero readers though? When I first read Crisis on Infinite Earths, it was pretty hard to swallow too, because I didn't know much about pre-Crisis DC characters. These kind of series are essentially meant for the loyal fans, right? The only difference with Final Crisis is that it was written by someone with a large fanbase outside superhero readers, so some non-nerds have tried to grapple with it too.

I think the main story is generally understandable even if you don't know all the references. Even as a fan I still needed a ton of help (like Douglas' notes) to get them, though, and when you don't get those references, you can feel like you're missing a huge chunk of the book, both in plot and greater conception - then it can seem like a really scattered, badly jumbled adventure with too many characters with minor roles jumping in and out that isn't even as enjoyable as say, the original COIE, or various other clusterfuck crossover stories. (Bear in mind I REALLY dug FC!)

I don't honestly think any non-comics fan, or even a casual fan, is really going to get what Superman Beyond was about? Though I guess it's arguable how much it really matters/connects to the central Darkseid story.

COIE was pretty straightforward though, the only weird thing a casual reader would have to understand is the concept of the multiverse, but not necessarily who Huntress was. Other than that, I found it pretty easy to read through a year or so ago (with no memory of what was going on in the DC Universe in '86 or who many of the characters were). It's paced well over the 12 issues, and doesn't feel too overstuffed. FC was gettin' in all this stuff from previous Crises, the aforementioned crazy 60s comics, and the Kirbyverse!

I found COIE literally unreadable. I think it was not so much the DC Universe stuff that melted my brane but the really fussy layouts.

I reckon superhero crossovers could be theoretically understandable by a casual reader, so long as they had heard of at least some of the superheroes involved. I suppose the problems come in if you start bringing in ones that a serious fan would know but a casual reader would not - do you throw in loads of "as you and I know" dialogue for the casuals or just let them sink or swim?

I have to re-read FC now, because I am convinced that you are all RONG. I do think reading some of the Morrisonian set-up books (52, Seven Soldiers, ASS, Animal Man, etc.) is helpful, and I would recommend reading those prior to FC, but I really do remember FC proper being among the most comprehensible of Morrison's works. It involves some close reading, but it does make sense. Douglas's notes were awesome, but I read them after the fact and didn't need them to sort out the what's what.

I dunno. If my girlfriend (who knows maybe slightly less than zero about anything relating to superhero continuity) makes it through Doom Patrol and is interested in reading more Morrison, I might see if she's up for testing my theory.